How's the site doing?

[Bantari]

There's probably some scattering effect to servers with their own discussion forum, too.

I have always expressed the opinion that the various go servers and associations should partner with a common go forum (godiscussions originally and lifein19x19 now) instead of implementing their own and fracturing the community.

Although this is a nice idea, I think in practice it is a bad idea. In my opinion, and I'm sure others feel totally different, other sites like e.g. reddit and the OGS forum have better forum software than L19. Experience shows that a software ecosystem without diversity leads to stagnation (see also: Windows, Internet Explorer, etc). Competition leads to improvement. Personally, I'd hate to still be stuck with rec.games.go

A few points here:

1. You cannot compare a forum to a software. Forum is a community, its a process, its communication. Software is a product. Where products are concerned, you are right, competition is good and leads to improvements. Where forums are concerned, competition is a different story. In an extreme case, each of us could be using a different forum and it would obviously be very bad. On the other hand, if each of us used a different browser - no problem.

Competition leads to fracturing and loss. Consider: a better forum software comes along, and then what? We all move, handles get misappropriated, old posts get lost, and everybody will have to spend time to adjust to the new look-and-feel and new functionality ideas. Just to do it again next year when a yet better forum comes along. No thanks.

2. Forum can be improved not by fracturing, but by looking at other forums, comparing, and implementing the options that are useful and which are missing. phpBB can be extended rather easily, its one of its good features. All it takes is a few people willing to put some work into it. And the work will probably be less than trying to, for example, switch forums and squeeze the old data into new format to preserver the old posts.

Btw.: how is the conversion of old GD posts going, anybody knows? Are they already part of L19?

3. rec.games.go had a few very specific and very bad flaws, and this is why (most of) the community moved to GD and then to L19. Without those flows, I see no reason not to continue using it - it also had some very substantial advantages over most game-related forums like L19. Unfortunately, in case of rgg the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

PS>
Personally, I think that the more the community is scattered and fractured, the weaker the community is. And there is no reason for that fracturing, really. If another site/forum offers useful options L19 does not have, these options can be built in. I think that the other sites should just direct the people here instead of starting dozens of new forums. Or whatever other place we decide to be the hub.

Alas, these days, everybody wants to be a king.

[xed_over]

Btw.: how is the conversion of old GD posts going, anybody knows? Are they already part of L19?

the backup of the old GD posts were incomplete -- maybe half or less. Many of the tables are just missing.

[Knotwilg]

1. You cannot compare a forum to a software. Forum is a community, its a process, its communication. Software is a product. Where products are concerned, you are right, competition is good and leads to improvements. Where forums are concerned, competition is a different story. In an extreme case, each of us could be using a different forum and it would obviously be very bad. On the other hand, if each of us used a different browser - no problem.

Competition leads to fracturing and loss. Consider: a better forum software comes along, and then what? We all move, handles get misappropriated, old posts get lost, and everybody will have to spend time to adjust to the new look-and-feel and new functionality ideas. Just to do it again next year when a yet better forum comes along. No thanks.

2. Forum can be improved not by fracturing, but by looking at other forums, comparing, and implementing the options that are useful and which are missing. phpBB can be extended rather easily, its one of its good features. All it takes is a few people willing to put some work into it. And the work will probably be less than trying to, for example, switch forums and squeeze the old data into new format to preserver the old posts.

Btw.: how is the conversion of old GD posts going, anybody knows? Are they already part of L19?

3. rec.games.go had a few very specific and very bad flaws, and this is why (most of) the community moved to GD and then to L19. Without those flows, I see no reason not to continue using it - it also had some very substantial advantages over most game-related forums like L19. Unfortunately, in case of rgg the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

PS>
Personally, I think that the more the community is scattered and fractured, the weaker the community is. And there is no reason for that fracturing, really. If another site/forum offers useful options L19 does not have, these options can be built in. I think that the other sites should just direct the people here instead of starting dozens of new forums. Or whatever other place we decide to be the hub.

Alas, these days, everybody wants to be a king.

As the great Bret Victor never ceases to remind us, the form leads the content. SL had a fair community but some dreaded the Markup language, experts wantend signed contributions and Arno never got round to integrate sgf. So the community fled to GD and L19, despite their ugly interface and their incapacity to structure and consolidate. New forms will come and L19 will be abandoned.

Blogs have died by the thousands because the new kid had a friendship feature. That will die too ... Unless we force everything to integrate the old form in a way that is hard to disrupt. I hope not, in the name of progress.

[Bantari]

1. You cannot compare a forum to a software. Forum is a community, its a process, its communication. Software is a product. Where products are concerned, you are right, competition is good and leads to improvements. Where forums are concerned, competition is a different story. In an extreme case, each of us could be using a different forum and it would obviously be very bad. On the other hand, if each of us used a different browser - no problem.

Competition leads to fracturing and loss. Consider: a better forum software comes along, and then what? We all move, handles get misappropriated, old posts get lost, and everybody will have to spend time to adjust to the new look-and-feel and new functionality ideas. Just to do it again next year when a yet better forum comes along. No thanks.

2. Forum can be improved not by fracturing, but by looking at other forums, comparing, and implementing the options that are useful and which are missing. phpBB can be extended rather easily, its one of its good features. All it takes is a few people willing to put some work into it. And the work will probably be less than trying to, for example, switch forums and squeeze the old data into new format to preserver the old posts.

Btw.: how is the conversion of old GD posts going, anybody knows? Are they already part of L19?

3. rec.games.go had a few very specific and very bad flaws, and this is why (most of) the community moved to GD and then to L19. Without those flows, I see no reason not to continue using it - it also had some very substantial advantages over most game-related forums like L19. Unfortunately, in case of rgg the disadvantages outweighed the advantages.

PS>
Personally, I think that the more the community is scattered and fractured, the weaker the community is. And there is no reason for that fracturing, really. If another site/forum offers useful options L19 does not have, these options can be built in. I think that the other sites should just direct the people here instead of starting dozens of new forums. Or whatever other place we decide to be the hub.

Alas, these days, everybody wants to be a king.

As the great Bret Victor never ceases to remind us, the form leads the content. SL had a fair community but some dreaded the Markup language, experts wantend signed contributions and Arno never got round to integrate sgf. So the community fled to GD and L19, despite their ugly interface and their incapacity to structure and consolidate. New forms will come and L19 will be abandoned.

Blogs have died by the thousands because the new kid had a friendship feature. That will die too ... Unless we force everything to integrate the old form in a way that is hard to disrupt. I hope not, in the name of progress.

What progress?
Is moving from egg to GD and then to L19 progress? Is losing all the old posts without getting much in return progress? I have been around these forums since the 80s, and honestly, there are not many new features other than kiddie candy like the "Like" button. Not here, and not really somewhere else. The only real improvement in terms of functionality I can see is that GD and L19 implement game diagrams, while egg did not. And this is "progress" over the past 25+ years - which is like several lifetimes in terms of software and internet. When I look around at other forums - programming, games, whatnot, stuff I read and look at - I don't really see any improvements over L19 other than more shiny interface, maybe. But the best forums don't even care about that. And whatever improvements there are, can probably be easily built into L19 code - with less effort than switching over and rebuilding the community.

This is a discussion forum, and it fulfills its function well.
It could be better, sure, but not at the price of abandoning it all and moving on.

Each time I see a forum fold is for one of three reasons:
- the owner got bored or did not want to run it for whatever other reason (GD), or
- the community did not have a need for (another?) forum, or
- lack of moderation run the forum into the ground (rgg)
It was never because some other forum came along which offered better features. Although there might be cases like that out there, for sure. I doubt it is very common, though. Or very compelling as indication.

Part of the value of such forum is that it offers a wealth of knowledge, which certainly includes historical data and posts. Each move will, almost by necessity, include loss and/or distortion of data. Just like the rgg->GD->L19 move. If the goal is to have a "friendship" feature and more shiny interface, I am definitely against that.

Now I know that part of what you say is true - L19 will eventually fold, just like GD and many sites before that - nothing lasts forever. But I think we should strive to prevent that, not embrace the fact as something "good" or even "progress". Its certainly not progress, its more like regress - each time it happens. Just look at the history.

PS>
Quick question:
If I/somebody put up a forum with a prettier interface tomorrow - how many would abandon L19 and move there?
What if I put in a Facebook login option? Bigger avatar images? Other useless gimmicks?
How strong is this community, really?

[xed_over]

I don't think people abandoned Sensei's for GD/L19 (some did, I'm sure). These sites serve completely different functions, and both are needed.

Sensei's is a wiki. a library of searchable information.
RGG/GD/L19 are discussion forums.

Sure you can do one on the other, but its not very convenient. They were never intended for the other.

Other social sites also serve different specialized needs that don't necessarily replace what these sites currently serve, so still no need to jump ship (yet).

[Gohst]

I'm with Bantari here... I think it is valuable to have one relatively dominant forum for a small community like this. If we are spread over several sites, we soon lose the critical mass to encourage people to come back.

I don't know about others but, if I return to this site and there are only a very few posts since the last time I visited, I lose interest. It's not worth the trouble to just read a couple of posts. Next time, I'll be less likely to return so quickly. That's a part of human nature, and I suspect it's common. The death of many blogs, etc has been lack of regular updates. A vibrant community begins to create its own kind of "gravity", sucking in more interested people all the time.

One of the reasons that I started this thread is that it's my perception that this place is less active than the old GD forums.

I really think the only advantage of a site like FaceBook is that "everyone" is there. It certainly doesn't have much else going for it. I'd probably be less likely to participate in "Go Discussions" over there.

Anyway, I have some programming experience and could help out with site improvements, if there are any that actually need doing....

Later,

Gohst

[Boidhre]

I think if the site has a major problem it's that after a year's break from here (give or take) I don't see many new usernames about the place. The site's biggest strength is that I see so many names I recognise. From a glance I'm not convinced that the OGS forums are "splitting the crowd" the discussion there seems to mostly be about OGS related topics.

[jeromie]

I agree with all of those who say there is no need for an overhaul from the current forum, but a few aesthetic/technical upgrades might make it a little more welcoming to new users.

I think the biggest turnoff is probably that the site appears dead at a glance: the "recent posts" widget on the root domain recently stopped working, and the l19tv and pro games database links don't seem to have any up to date content. Most of the forum regulars probably bypass that page, so issues like that don't affect us. They can be a turnoff to newcomers, though, who may think the site has ceased to be updated.

The visual style can have a similar effect. It's functional, but it dates the site and makes it appear inactive at a quick glance. There are some fantastic contributors here for those who are willing to look a little deeper!

[virre]

I think if the site has a major problem it's that after a year's break from here (give or take) I don't see many new usernames about the place. The site's biggest strength is that I see so many names I recognise. From a glance I'm not convinced that the OGS forums are "splitting the crowd" the discussion there seems to mostly be about OGS related topics.

(Well I should be a new name)

This might be a thing, but there is three part to this

1) The growth of western players of Go is not that big either if I understand correctly
2) All new players are not the type of people that posts to forums (Most people regardless of level I know, are not on any go forum or anything like that)
3) In a so rank-based games, it can be indimating to acctually post something in front of higher ranked people. I tend to not give a crap about that, but thats because I can not make a bigger fool of myself then I did when I was drinking.

[virre]

I agree with all of those who say there is no need for an overhaul from the current forum, but a few aesthetic/technical upgrades might make it a little more welcoming to new users.

I think the biggest turnoff is probably that the site appears dead at a glance: the "recent posts" widget on the root domain recently stopped working, and the l19tv and pro games database links don't seem to have any up to date content. Most of the forum regulars probably bypass that page, so issues like that don't affect us. They can be a turnoff to newcomers, though, who may think the site has ceased to be updated.

The visual style can have a similar effect. It's functional, but it dates the site and makes it appear inactive at a quick glance. There are some fantastic contributors here for this who are willing to look a little deeper!

If thoose pages are unupdated then the first page should redirect to forum really.

[Boidhre]

I think if the site has a major problem it's that after a year's break from here (give or take) I don't see many new usernames about the place. The site's biggest strength is that I see so many names I recognise. From a glance I'm not convinced that the OGS forums are "splitting the crowd" the discussion there seems to mostly be about OGS related topics.

(Well I should be a new name)

This might be a thing, but there is three part to this

1) The growth of western players of Go is not that big either if I understand correctly
2) All new players are not the type of people that posts to forums (Most people regardless of level I know, are not on any go forum or anything like that)
3) In a so rank-based games, it can be indimating to acctually post something in front of higher ranked people. I tend to not give a crap about that, but thats because I can not make a bigger fool of myself then I did when I was drinking.

Yup, I'd agree with all three. 1) is a problem for all go services in the West. What I mean is the site seems to do well with hanging onto the people it has which is important because the site doesn't gather new posters quickly and a sharp drop in the number of active posters (for any reason) could be fatal. Whereas retention is somewhat less important for forums with high uptake numbers. It's a trivial point but also why some forums keep going for years and years only to die in a few months.

Hello btw.

[tentano]

I don't know how much it helps people with a fear of public speaking, but I've definitely said things on here which were wrong and then corrected by others.

I really feel people here are a lot kinder than a general audience. It's not a weak side to this community.

Maybe it's also that when you play this game for a while, you encounter many moments where you're absolutely certain of the wrong move. It really tones down one's sense of perfection.

[HermanHiddema]

You cannot compare a forum to a software.

Just to clarify: I am not. I'm not saying that competing fora will improve the quality of the discussion. I am saying that we keep getting stuck with forum software that I think is ugly and lacks functionality.

I would gladly abandon 99% of the posts on L19 if we could move to a more modern forum. The huge majority of posts here have no long term value.

Now that can happen in one of two ways:
1. The maintainers of the current forum deploy a new one and migrate the necessary data over.
2. Another forum with better software starts to attract away users and L19 dies a natural death.

The first option is, IMO, unlikely. Many people will strongly oppose any such change, as it effectively forces everyone over (no choice)

So therefore, the second option is the only one I consider likely to get things done.

I wish there were a better way, but I don't see one.

[oren]

I would gladly abandon 99% of the posts on L19 if we could move to a more modern forum. The huge majority of posts here have no long term value.

Do you have an example? I haven't seen anything better out there.

[quantumf]

http://www.discourse.org/ for instance. I'm sure that it isn't the only that's moved on from 90's style php web sites.