Uberdude vs. RoseDuke

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:28 am

Thanks for the analysis Bill, I'd missed both o16 and t15. Does t15 mean s12 should be t13? (using orientation of my sgf)

As for the earlier yose, there are rather bigger mistakes there!
- Probably r2 should be able to get c2 in sente first.
- m1 is not the 3 points reverse sente I thought it was due to that aji inside.
- was l7 a mistake? I could feel the bad shape playing it, but hadn't yet seen o3. Though just before o3 I did think p5 would probably be a nice solid move.
- f8 was almost a misclick as last move of byo yomi, but actually seems ok to defend centre and g5, though maybe e11 is better? If white goes in too far the c7 problem can reappear and I'm thick enough in the centre to not fear trades.
- d10 and all that associated pain, should be a better way, f6 probably wrong.
- is g9 at f10 ok? There's ataris inside but no they capture anything?
- p19 is maybe the end of middlegame not yose, but lost a lot of points with s9, should I play s9 myself?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:18 am

Uberdude wrote:Thanks for the analysis Bill, I'd missed both o16 and t15.

Fortunately, your opponent played it as a 1 point reverse sente instead of a 1/3 point double sente.

(Which might be right, depending on the rest of the board.)

Does t15 mean s12 should be t13? (using orientation of my sgf)

I wondered about that, but having the stone on s12 is safer. Anyway, the "double sente" is actually a Black sente. It just stayed on the board too long. It is a middle sized yose.

I'll take a look at your other questions when I get some time.

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:19 pm

Nice win, Uberdude! :clap:

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:12 pm

Uberdude wrote:
- Probably r2 should be able to get c2 in sente first.

You mean B c2 - W b2, B d3 - W b3 or c4 ? Probably, eh?

- m1 is not the 3 points reverse sente I thought it was due to that aji inside.

After W214 B m1 is not the play. B n1 is now a Black sente, threatening to kill.

What is with you guys, missing your double sente?

For our readers, here is the threat to kill.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc W2 elsewhere (coordinate numbers reversed) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . X O . 7 . 4 3 5 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O O O O 6 O O X . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X X X X O X O O X . . . X X X O | $$ | . . . O . . X O X X X . X . . , . O . | $$ | . . O . . O . X O . . . X . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . O X X X . X . O O O O O O O . |[/go]

Aside to our readers: The endgame is not (just) about counting and making the largest plays, it is about fighting strength.

Edit: I'll look at your other questions when I get the time.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:04 am

Another thought: Don't reply to the "double sente" at b-10. Play s-03 instead.

(And if you do reply, isn't b-12 better than b-11?)

Can you get away with d-08 before s-03? If White replies with d-09, play e-08?

Edit: Corrected typos.

quantumf · Post by **quantumf** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:23 pm

Some comments from Victor

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:40 pm

Thanks to Victor and quantumf for the comments.

Yeah, seeing n10 on the board again makes it even more obvious that it's essentially game over for white if I get that. It's a bad habit of mine to think I can try to get in some not-really-sente move before the important one. Given how good n10 is, I think his p8 should perhaps take a liberty at n8, even if it does mean he doesn't get to p8 kikashi first. Would I then continue at n10 anyway, or m10, or tenuki?

About c7 for 119, whilst that might be the move that leads to the largest win, I thought as I was ahead I shouldn't give white a chance to make a complex fight as he's better at them than me. I planned to hassle the centre group in sente first to make sure the e12 cut wouldn't put the g11 group in danger (of course c9 is in danger too so black should be able to handle things fine, but I am good at dying in byo yomi) and then think about c9, though in the end his peep made me reinforce at k9 which was not quite as sente as I hoped so he got to fix with e6.

I see he agrees black p19 is not a good plan, just s9, and then d8 is nice indeed.

t14 for 184 is dangerous though: I s12 in sente and then t4 throw in and he can't answer or t7 kills the big group (as n14 falisfies that eye and I don't see a way for him to turn that half eye into a real eye in sente, did I miss one?).

Good point about c10, I did think about that at some point in the sequence but missed it in the blind panic at that point.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:43 pm

For oca, attach workshop:

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:09 am

Uberdude wrote:For oca, attach workshop:
...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:30 am

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:58 am

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:59 am

Yes, I thought you were inspired by that attachment, you seem a little obsessed with it

It's probably worth saying that that attachment is a fairly recent Korean joseki innovation that goes against natural style and would get you strange looks if you played it a few decades ago.

Let's look at why it is different. First the extension which was a good move in my game is a bad move now: it doesn't take any liberties from the marked 4-4 stone so black can just help the other one. In fact the 4-4 is on a good shape point and means black can hane and connect in sente to cut. Notice that helping the attachment stone doesn't hurt the 4-4 stone because it is further away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . B . 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . | $$ . . . . . 5 1 6 . | $$ . . . . . . 4 8 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

In this joseki it's normal to hane on top (under is possible too depending on a ladder) and black extends and then there are several choices for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . B . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . 5 4 . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

With my game if you hane black can cut and the cutting stone is in no danger because it's connected to the closer marked black stone, so white is in big trouble. (In the attachment joseki cut could maybe be plausible but it's not connected so there'd be some crazy fighting).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . 2 1 . . | $$ . . 3 O . . | $$ . . B . . . | $$ . . , . O . | $$ . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . | $$ ------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:17 pm

It is worth noting that :b4:

here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:07 pm

Bill Spight wrote:is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years.

Well, I did check GoGoD before posting and there are about half a dozen occurrences before the 1990s, and most of those aren't in open play, and almost a thousand since. So maybe it was in a joseki dictionary, but it didn't pass the test of being used much in actual play. :scratch:

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:38 pm

Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years.

Well, I did check GoGoD before posting and there are about half a dozen occurrences before the 1990s, and most of those aren't in open play, and almost a thousand since. So maybe it was in a joseki dictionary, but it didn't pass the test of being used much in actual play.

Well, a couple of variations were said to be equal exchanges, but none were called joseki or common patterns. So it was certainly the Koreans who developed it in recent times. (But I played it a few times myself in the 1970s. :mrgreen:

)

I suppose that there are rather more variations in Suzuki's great work, the Igo Daijiten. It just goes to show the thoroughness of Suzuki and his researchers.

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