#246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

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Loons
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 White can dodge as necessary.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 6 . . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing else seems to work, so we have tenuki or 'a'. Perhaps black can play D18 and see if a deep invasion turns up.

Wait
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No obvious refutation
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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skydyr
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by skydyr »

Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 White can dodge as necessary.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . 1 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 6 . . 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing else seems to work, so we have tenuki or 'a'. Perhaps black can play D18 and see if a deep invasion turns up.

Wait
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 No obvious refutation
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I was thinking possibly this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . 3 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


And as white runs, black can take gote to consolidate the bottom, though not necessarily right away. It's not clear to me that white has a terribly sharp follow-up here.
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by Loons »

@skydyr
Good points, perhaps my :w42: was heavy. I played it because it makes better shape with P9. I rejected :b43: because black is attempting to build points on the severely undercut bottom.
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


For me to play anything else here would be strange.

I suppose I could tenuki back to the bottom right, but this would hardly be a good way to probe for aji.

---

And to commenters: I almost didn't notice my opponent's post again! :o

I'm glad I went back a page to check. Either you guys are having a lively discussion about this game that will give me new insight into my Chinese opening play, or you're doing what happened in another Malkovich game recently where an observer suggested everyone spam posts to make the players nervous. ;-)
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by skydyr »

@moyoaji
:twisted:
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

@skydyr
Ah, good. You guys are just messing with me. I can stop worrying that I made some sort of horrible blunder. :D

Or maybe you just want me to think it's a joke, and I really did mess up! :-?

Then again, what if you all want me to think that I should think that I don't need to think that which I think I need to think... :shock:
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Loons
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by Loons »

Really, I'm vicariously losing the game to Skydyr.
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skydyr
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by skydyr »

Loons wrote:Really, I'm vicariously losing the game to Skydyr.


Serves you right after you crushed me the last time we played ;)
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Sorry again for my long break. January turned out much more busy than I expected. I hope being able to stay more on track from now on.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I expect the following sequence ending in Sente and am then planning to play :b41:. Here, w has to decide if/how to defend the upper side, at the same time the situation around P5/P8 is not yet fully clear.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The other possibility is to hane at P18:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 5 . O 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


With :b41: I can threaten to slip further into w's territory. However w will defend and thereby possibly get more strength towards center which feels counterproductive.
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

It's okay. We seem to both have somewhat erratic schedules. As long as we can make some time sometimes, the game shall continue! :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This would be the last point where I'd say tenuki would be an option. After all, it is where my opponent has made a choice of joseki. I could treat my previous moves as probes for aji.

However, to tenuki here would lead to a weak result if I didn't get back here first. Also, this wins me the corner and strengthens my approach stone quite nicely. This, combined with my wall, has all but won me the top side of the board. I am pleased with that.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Uberdude
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by Uberdude »

Maybe add a trigger to help things along?
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Thank you for your patience. My next move is rather straight forward. Let's keep the game going! ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think my position is rather difficult. White has already much secure territory in different areas and the invasion is likely to completely neutralize my influence. Maybe the game would not last very much longer from here - If w manages to neutralize all of my influence in the center, I can as well resign.

After w's obvious response on (a) I am not sure if a move on (b) is sente against the upper side. White could possibly just continue in deleting my influence e.g. at (c). Therefore I might need to play directly something against the white invasion, e.g. at (d).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 a 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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skydyr
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by skydyr »

@schawipp
schawipp wrote:After w's obvious response on (a) I am not sure if a move on (b) is sente against the upper side. White could possibly just continue in deleting my influence e.g. at (c). Therefore I might need to play directly something against the white invasion, e.g. at (d).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 a 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 6 5 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Could you elaborate on these plans? What sort of sequence might white play if he ignores B, and how do you expect play to proceed if you play D?


Observers only:
I'm surprised neither player considers any play near :w30: and :w32: urgent, but more as a last resort. As black, I'm not sure I would play :b39: in the diagram because I think white should tenuki it, the sequence in the corner having not been big enough. If either player plays out a sente sequence in the bottom right, or a huge reduction like schawipp mentioned with B in the diagram, I don't think the other side will ignore it to come back to the upper right.

My feeling is still that black needs to attack the two white stones in order to build the territory necessary to stay in the game. The upper right corner was already a start for black, helping to solidify the right side.
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Uberdude wrote:Maybe add a trigger to help things along?

Ah, I'd forgotten about those... :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Okay. I've gotten nice profit on the top. Now black will likely follow-up on the bottom. The question is: how?
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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schawipp
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

I shifted the starting move by +1 for better fitting of diagram digits and move numbers ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


@skydyr & observers:

As I anyway wanted to go on, I put my "analysis" right here. I am very curious about the upcoming refutations ;-)

As first reaction, I feel tempted to directly play against the white P5 / P8 stones. A possible line with an over-cautiously white player could be as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . 5 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 9 . 6 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This looks quite funny for black and therefore, it probably wouldn't happen. More realistic seems a continuation like that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . 5 . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Here, white treats the lower stones rather lightly and grabs a big part of the center influence ( :w44: threatens to cut off my left side invasion; thus I would have to respond; this seems a weak spot anyway...).

Therefore, I would rather aim to play around K14. This has also the advantage that - if w plays on D8 and E8 (which I just identified as potentially weak spot), the area above E9 would not be automatically turn completely white.

I was also thinking about the shoulder hit...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


... however a white response like this would be a direction which I don't like at all.

Therefore I stick to K14, if white continues to play at the lower side I could try a sequence like this (however the question is if w is really forced to answer :b45: at :w46:):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . 7 . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 5 . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If white plays calmly on the upper side, a possible sequence could be like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black continues at a
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 2 . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . a . 0 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 9 . 6 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I am not sure what is going to happen in this position, and it is anyway very difficult (at least for me) to get a clear picture about all possible continuations, so let's try K14 :cool:
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