#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:22 pm

Hi Bill,

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:41 pm

My initial reaction is to take him down a path in which he has few reasonable options but to play 2 through 8 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ---------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 X . W 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 6 b 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and then see how important influence is to him. :rambo:

His

is a cutting stone, but anything it does is going to be overshadowed by my tengen stone.
I still have 'a' for a small but tolerable life if he wants to try to activate C6, and 'b' is a nagging shape issue for him.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:24 pm

jeromie wrote:The comments from both sides (and from Bill and Ed) are great so far. I'm going to enjoy following this game!

It definitely has the look of an exciting game, and I will be very curious to see what Bill, Ed, and others have to say. I haven't been able to finish a Malkovich game yet to see how others react to my comments, so if there is anything I can do to make them better/more interesting, please let me know.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:36 pm

amatterof wrote:if there is anything I can do to make them better/more interesting,

Usually people enjoy it if both sides think they're winning.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:00 pm

Hi, Ed.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:00 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:17 pm

Hi Bill,

Thanks.

Bill Spight wrote:
$$Wm7
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . | $$ . . X . . O . . 6 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------[/go]

The mistake seems to be the attach :w11:

, in the original var.

The :w1:

attach is for this kind of situation, when B cannot hane at (a) (and can only atari (b) ):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . , . . O X . X 1 . . | $$ . . . X X O b . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------[/go]

After the hane :b6:

, then even with the simple :b8:

atari, B gets a good local result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . 7 . . | $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . | $$ . . X . . O 8 . 6 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------[/go]

So in the original var, both the attach :w11:

and the immediate tiger's mouth :b12:

were mistakes:

$$Wm7
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . |
$$ . . X . 8 O 6 . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7 $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . , . . 3 2 . X 5 . . | $$ . . X . 8 O 6 . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------[/go]

Instead of the attach, W should jump to 3-3 with :w5:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . , . . 3 2 . X . . . | $$ . . X . . O . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:57 pm

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:17 pm

Hi, Ed.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:33 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 7 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger:

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:15 am

Bill:

Ed:

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:25 am

EdLee wrote:
amatterof wrote:if there is anything I can do to make them better/more interesting,
Usually people enjoy it if both sides think they're winning.

Or losing.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:42 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 3 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not quite sure what the rules are regarding triggers. To be safe, I'm hitting submit on this post before looking at the trigger, and will edit it with my next move if I hit the trigger.

Edit: Trigger hit.

For observers:

I didn't talk about the potential that Black would still attach on top in any of my previous posts. I knew the possibility existed in the back of my head, and should have guessed that it would happen given :b6:

, but for some reason didn't think to analyze it. I'll need to be more careful about covering the universe of possible black plays before deciding on a path in the rest of this game.

Just as I didn't know the 3-3 invasion josekis all that well, I'm not terribly familiar with this one either. First, some basic principles/thoughts: Black's move calls out that White has created 2 groups, and aims to keep them separated. Thus, for purposes of evaluating results here, Black will succeed if he completely kills one group (ie, consolidates the corner and one side); White will succeed if he can make strong groups both on the bottom and in the corner/side; and an even result will likely involve one strong white group in one of those spots, and aji in the other.

Next, possible moves. The hane seems like the obvious choice, but I can see a few other options that might work as well:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . d 8 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X b 7 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A - The hane makes sense. White's goal is to make two strong groups from his two currently weak ones, and the way to get stronger is to play contact moves.
B - This also makes the bottom-side group strong, but it has two related problems. First, it plays into a situation where Black has played a hane at the head of two stones, which is good shape for him and bad shape for me. Second, it starts to damage the corner aji more than I'd like. I need to make my group strong while leaving as much potential in the corner/left side as possible.
C - Seems creative and interesting in a let's-be-crazy sort of way, but again seems to only be looking for 1 live group.
D - This seems like a gross overplay, particularly since the ladder doesn't work for White.

To try to make this a bit more clear for observers, here are the results I would predict if I tried B or C. Notice also that both are gote for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Rough Predictions $$ | . . . , . . . . | . . . , . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . | . . X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . | . . O . . . . $$ | . . 7 6 2 X . . | . . . . 8 X . $$ | . . 5 X 1 O b . | . . 2 X 5 O . $$ | . . 4 3 8 . . . | . 6 1 3 4 9 . $$ | . . a 9 0 . . . | . . . . 7 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------------[/go]

Now for my selected move. The obvious Black response is to draw back (I expect this is Joaz's trigger), after which I'll need to decide which way to connect my two stones, the hanging connection (A) or the solid connection (B). (I briefly looked at Black extending to the X spot instead and concluded it would be an overplay. But I didn't spend too much time on it.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O b a . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The advantage to A is that it works better when Black tries to build up the middle and use his tengen stone, like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 3 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I had played the solid connection instead, :b6:

would be a more powerful move, aiming to consolidate the left side and kill C6 on a larger scale. Because of the hanging connection, however, I can also respond strongly and C6 retains most of its aji. In addition, I'll be building some very nice thickness to come to O3.

The advantage of B is that it removes aji along the bottom-side, which, in turn, increases my aji in the corner. With the hanging connection, Black can try to consolidate the corner by poking at White's shape. However, when I studied this, I couldn't find good real way for Black to completely eliminate the corner aji.

So, I guess I'm predicting some sort of development along these lines, which looks OK for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc at a or b (probably b) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 3 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . 4 5 . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or maybe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Still plenty of aji left in C6. Will Black have time to play A? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a ? . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? . X . O . 3 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If

peeps at G3, it's pretty annoying though, and I'm still working on the best response there.

For observers (regarding the trigger):

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:27 am

Thanks, Uberdude!

Uberdude wrote:Your joseki books are too old!

And here I was just getting into the joseki of the 1830s. :mrgreen:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:46 am

@amatterof: Your handling of the trigger looks fine to me.

Bill Spight wrote:Thanks, Uberdude!

Uberdude wrote:Your joseki books are too old!

And here I was just getting into the joseki of the 1830s.

I can't wait to go back and look at the comments.

@everyone except amatterof: If we reach the point where the comments are not affecting the current game, please go back and unhide them. Thanks.

Life In 19x19

#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re:

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck