#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:16 pm

Well, we were talking about a joseki which can't happen anymore in this corner (as you played f5), but maybe it could happen in those other 4-4 corners...

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:45 pm

Joaz Banbeck almost wrote:... he has few reasonable options but to play...like this:

$$Bc
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

amatterof almost wrote:...

$$Bc
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . 4 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 4 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

I thought that he had to take the corner.

:scratch:

But, as I said earlier, I'm out of my book.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let us assume that I do something moderately aggressive, that restricts his growing group. Even then, he can invade

I can block this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . O . O . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and my lower left group is meaningless, maybe even in danger.

Or I can block this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . O . O . B . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

..and he is in a better position than the joseki because his worst weak spot is now protected.

He can take it profitably if I let him, and after all, it is a corner, so I should get it for myself.

But then, he has sente. What is the worst that he can do?

He probably has to make some sort of base for his group.

He can't go as far as N3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . 4 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So the most he can do is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and then I get the natural play at 14.

Or, if he tenukis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 3 elsewhere $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . 4 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:21 am

For observers:

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:04 am

@amatterof

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:21 am

@Uberdude:

I considered it very briefly, but instinctively thought that if I was going to invade, it would have been better not to have made the marked exchange first. I didn't play these out until now, but here are two examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Example 1: , , or could be A $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 X . O 4 0 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 7 1 3 . 9 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Example 2: White can play A, so it's probably ok $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But maybe you're thinking of this complicated idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Complicated $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O b . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c 9 B X W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X 5 O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 1 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked exchange means Black gets to play atari at :b6:

, but after White at A, White does end up nicely thick. But what if :b10:

is at B? The C9 stone is an annoying ladder breaker.
Even :b10:

at c followed by b and d looks tricky. Is there a ko in the corner? (I looked at a closely related variation for awhile while studying the G3 peep before :b12:

).

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The first question I had to ask myself was whether there's anything more I want to do locally in the lower left. For instance, I could:

Fix my shape with G3
Build more influence/a wall with G6 or G7
Activate C6

None of these seem very appealing right now. Fixing my shape with G3 is gote and feels slow. Building a wall with G6 or G7 is nice, but Black will almost certainly take the opportunity to play D7 if I do. And activating C6 seems like I'm begging to be attacked, when even the G5 stones aren't settled.

However, one thing I spent a lot of time thinking about was whether there is some move I can play with C6 that means Black can no longer kill it as cleanly. In other words, before leaving C6, I want to see if there's a way to increase its aji. I looked at the following moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The problem with A, B and C is that they both tend to prompt moves that will later allow Black to capture C6 on an even bigger scale after White tenukis now:

For A, Black likely plays F7 or E8, followed by the other one.
For B, Black likely plays D9, followed by E8
For C, Black likely plays E9, followed by F8

In other words, if I'm going to tenuki anyway, I shouldn't give Black any of these helping moves. D was the only one that looked remotely interesting. Black then plays D7, and there is lots of fun aji remaining around C8. Furthermore, Black's follow-up killing move here is D8, which is slower and no bigger than originally.

I started gearing up to play D, but then realized that (1) while there is still a lot of aji around C8 after this exchange, there is decidedly less aji than there currently is; (2) I can still play at D after Black plays D7; and (3) (most importantly), I may want to provoke Black D7 in a different way later on, such as with G6 or G7 to develop the bottom, or with something around C11 to develop the top. There's no need to commit to a particular path before I know what I want.

So, if I'm going to tenuki, there are 3 options that come to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A play at A returns to my original plan of developing the top. B and C, however, are the kind of directional questions with which I still struggle. B seems natural, and if Black calmly extends, I can cash in nicely on the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , ? ? . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . ? . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black pincers, this time I'm more torn about what to do. The G5 stones are strong enough (especially if I get G3), that I'm not too worried about Black developing something if I take the corner. But doesn't the fact that I'm happy to give Black the bottom seem to suggest that I'm playing in the wrong direction with B in the first place? Or, maybe my direction is correct and it just means this is a good spot to jump out and fight back against a pincer, especially since I can play G6/G7 as a possible dual threat then?

I'm leaning towards the second idea, and this corner feels slightly urgent (unlike A) since G5 isn't perfectly settled, so I'm picking B.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:14 am

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:20 am

@Joaz

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:47 am

@Uberdude and observers:

Uberdude wrote:@Joaz
Does it not make sense that your opponent may overplay or over-extend in a handicap game? You may think his moves are bad, but for them to make no sense to you would require you to be rather stupid, which you don't seem to be.

Of course, white should probably overplay a bit in a handicap game. But this is only two stones. I could understand a slight overplay at N3, but O3 seems fit for a five-stone handicap.

And note that I have not said that I they are bad. I have said that I don't understand them.
When playing a stronger player I have to assume that he has some deeper purpose that is not immediately obvious to me.

Here is my best guess at what he is planning to do.

If I pincer, he runs, and I must extend from the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then he activates C6 with something like :w4:

. I'm not sure exactly where, but he does something in that general area. I reply with :b5:

someplace, then he extends with :w6:

.

Eventually, he caps my invading stone and goes for a large scale attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 8 c . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , 1 . a b . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, as I have drawn it, black seems to get out with a-b-c and harasses white's O-file stones. But this is just a general plan.

Addendum: The more I look at G7, the more it seems to be the proper direction for the white group. I have put it - or something in the general area like F8 - on my list of moves to make when I have sente.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:22 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 4 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:27 pm

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:53 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

( For beginners. ) My opinions, only --
The bottom :white:

stones don't seem a good combination.
The tengen :black:

stone is at a nice place.
The top center area is big.
No hurry, just take cash and fix all aji with :b1:

.

Loons wrote:Play exactly as you would even.

I agree; in an H2 game --
As :white:

, I cannot get 2 corners,
so I play almost exactly the same as even.
As :black:

, I suddenly get 3 corners,
so I play almost exactly the same as even.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote::o

I'm totally confused by my opponent's play. He has only made seven moves, and three of them make no sense to me. Two of those three moves are the last two.

1) C14 seems to be too loose for solid territory as C15 would have been, but it is not quite far enough to prevent a two-space extension for my stone at C9.

It is normal in the fuseki to leave a two space extension for either player. If Black attaches to the C-06 stone, for instance, White has the option of extending to C-11 as part of sacrificing that stone.

2) TTBOMR, he had to invade at C3. I can't claim to understand this. It is just what I recall from my joseki books.

It seems to me that White is countering Black's tengen stone ( :b6:

). Jumping into the corner allows Black to build a wall that works with :b6:

, and the hanging connection avoids that. That also explains the double approach on the 4th line. Giving up the corner invasion is a cost, but White's play is consistent.

3) His most recent extension seems to be an overplay.

When giving a handicap White almost has to play thinly. Back in the days when pros gave handicaps to other pros in serious play, you could often see that quite early in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In fact, the White framework in this diagram is reminiscent of old time pro-pro handicap games. (Not that amatterof planned to play that way. I might have, though.

See one of Yoda's recent games against CrazyStone for an example.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Tewari $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 6 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Suppose that play had gone that way, however. Would you, as Black, now play at :b16:

, risking

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Tewari $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . 7 . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , 4 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yet Joaz is playing for just that position, reached by transposition. I think that this represents a genuine difference in the two players' assessments of the strength of the White hanging connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Keima $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

BTW, I would have strongly considered :b14:

. It prevents the White jump and works with the tengen stone.

That keima was characteristic of the New Fuseki. But actually it appears in the oldest game records that we have, from China.

Edit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 One space high pincer $$ -------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . 1 . a . 4 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would also have considered the one space high pincer, which leaves room for an extension to "a".

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:15 pm

Hi Bill

Life In 19x19

#250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck

Re: #250 amatterof v. Joaz Banbeck