Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by DrStraw »

Uberdude wrote:Yes, fair point Tiger Woods is lots more famous than Gu Li so that comparison was not so good, but my main point was that Tiger Woods was too recent. I was going to make the comparison with Lee Chang Ho but thought DrStraw would probably have heard of him, whereas Gu Li was in the most recent list of pros DrStraw hadn't heard of except Nie Weiping and Rui Naiwei, along with younger whipper-snappers I'm not surprised he hasn't heard of like Shi Yue, Fan Tingyu, Mi Yuting, Ke Jie etc.


Well I have heard of Gu Li, but he is young, certainly not of the older generation I was referring to with Nie and Rui. If someone was born after I reached shodan I consider him the yougner generation regardless of how many tournaments he has won.

And yes, I do know who Tiger Woods is, althought I have never seen him play. I have watched Jack Nicklaus many times (on TV).
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Off Topic: Forum Typography

Post by Bonobo »

Off-Topic blabber and bling bling re: forum typography
This what it looks like on my OS X with Chrome, and IIRC I didn’t change type settings:
Screen Shot 2015-02-10 at 02.12.37.png
Screen Shot 2015-02-10 at 02.12.37.png (210.91 KiB) Viewed 10945 times


Also, while I’ve learnt that serifs are better for fluid reading on paper b/c they lead the eye, I also have learnt that for screen it is better to use sans-serif fonts because the serifs are uglified by the pixel-wise resolution. I don't know whether it has improved with Apple’s modern “Retina” screens.


I prefer sans-serif fonts for reading text on screens, serif fonts easily turn into a mish-mash (yes, also with my reading glasses on).
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

Looks like I caught DrStraw at a bad moment LOL

Kifu is a Japanese word of Chinese origin, so it can take on more than one meaning, depending on context. In the context of Go I understand this word as referring to a printed record of a game of Go. It is likely that I used broadly and overlooked subtler - yet important - shades of meaning.

So, what do I mean by the replaying of game records as a "yin" activity? My understanding of Chinese philosophy is superficial at best, so if there is the need for correction I won't protest. AFAIK yin refers to actions and characteristics that can be considered as being of the "female" half of creation, with yang meaning those actions and characteristics that are considered to be of the "male" half.

On the Sensei's Library article on Ancient Chinese Go rules & philosophy there is a reference to yin & yang. After reading this and reflecting on this duality, I began thinking about whether. This can be considered a continuation of a topic that has already been covered in other L19 posts, but this is the first time I linked it with a philosophy.

I approach the question out of curiosity, rather than out of any desire to prove my intellectual superiority. (There are a fair number on L19 that have 10x the brains that I have. You know how you are.)

Also, there are complaints that my choice of font makes for difficult reading. So, I will just stick with the standard. Hopefully everyone will be able to read text clearly.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

Bonobo wrote:
DrStraw wrote:Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.

At whom exactly should Tekesta then address their apology, at whose feet sink down in shame? And who will sing songs of praise for the custodians of orthodoxy?
This is probably a nice bit of sarcasm, but I do not believe there is anything for which to apologize, other than having offended the sensibilities of one or two members on this thread.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

DrStraw wrote:Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.
True, but then again I do not consider myself very proficient in Japanese, despite having studied it in the past.

As well, being catty in regards to mistakes with terms of foreign origin is, in my opinion, an ineffective means of reducing a person's ignorance. It would be more effective simply to point out respectfully the mistake when it occurs.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

DrStraw wrote:Well I have heard of Gu Li, but he is young, certainly not of the older generation I was referring to with Nie and Rui. If someone was born after I reached shodan I consider him the yougner generation regardless of how many tournaments he has won.
That is a natural way of saying it. As you may already know, professional Go has changed much since the days of Nie and Rui, and Rin Kaiho, Koichi Kobayashi and the other top Japanese players of the late Showa era.

Those "whippersnappers" in today's Chinese professional Go scene are many times more powerful than you and I put together. So much so, that I would speak of them respectfully, even if they are several years younger than me. They probably spent their days at Go school mostly studying games by masters of the last 30 years, instead of the Edo and Meiji era Honinbos and the great Japanese masters of the Taisho and Showa eras. Many of us in the Go communities Western countries are mostly familiar with these, so we tend to know more about them than we do about old Chinese masters such as Fan Xiping and Huang Longshi, or more recent ones such as Wu Songsheng and Ma Xiaochun.

And yes, I do know who Tiger Woods is, althought I have never seen him play. I have watched Jack Nicklaus many times (on TV).
My father knows of Jack Nicklaus as well. Golf players of his generation were much classier than today's crop of golf stars. At the very least they kept their private affairs... private.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by daal »

Everyone knows that the OP was referring to a game record. Despite the blowhard replies that the word kifu was being used inaccurately, I still don't know why, and am inclined to care less and start using Japanese words incorrectly just to see who it riles.

tekesta wrote:Recently I have been musing about whether the replaying of kifu can be considered a "yin" activity. I compare it to when a baby receives milk from its mother's breast. One is nourished, but there is no need to chew. The nourishment received helps to strengthen muscles and bones.

As well, doing puzzles can be considered a yang activity. It's like when one puts solid food in her mouth and chews on it. One is also nourished, but there is the need to chew well to make the food soft enough to swallow and digest. The nourishment received helps to maintain supple body tissues.

In Chinese philosophy, an excess of yin can lead to yang and vice versa. On this point I posit that replaying lots and lots of kifu eventually leads to the ability to analyze board positions. Doing lots and lots of puzzles in all categories eventually results in developing intuition than can be effectively applied during play.


Maybe your post provoked snarky replies because it seems hard to get a handle on. Why should one form of nourishment lead to stronger muscles and bones and the other to body tissue? How do you determine that one aspect of go is more yin or yang than another? How does yin and yang balance each other - is this an ideal or is it viewed as something that occurs automatically? What I mean by my last question is, if we assume that your categorizations are ok, does Chinese philosophy say that an excess of yin always brings about more yang or just when a person is in balance?

As to your hypothesis that replaying kifu (is that some kind of donkey?) will bring about the ability to analyze board positions, who know? Try it out! My feeling is that the more passively (yinly?) you replay the games, the less it will add to your ability to analyze board positions. Replaying a game doesn't have to be sitting back and watching - you can also be trying to make and justify the decisions yourself.
Patience, grasshopper.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by DrStraw »

tekesta wrote:Those "whippersnappers" in today's Chinese professional Go scene are many times more powerful than you and I put together. So much so, that I would speak of them respectfully, even if they are several years younger than me.


Referring to someone as of the younger generation is in no way disrespectful. It is a statement of fact, and the simple fact is that I have not kept up with the younger generation because I no longer study the game.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tentano »

daal wrote:Everyone knows that the OP was referring to a game record. Despite the blowhard replies that the word kifu was being used inaccurately, I still don't know why, and am inclined to care less and start using Japanese words incorrectly just to see who it riles.


Don't forget to add an incorrect macron. It's vital to add to the irritation factor.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

DrStraw wrote:Referring to someone as of the younger generation is in no way disrespectful. It is a statement of fact, and the simple fact is that I have not kept up with the younger generation because I no longer study the game.
A friend of mine once told me that once an amateur gets to shodan, the need to study intensively begins to decrease. I imagine that at this level the law of diminishing returns begins to make itself felt. He also told me that by 5d, one knows more than enough to be able to teach Go fundamentals to a novice.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

tentano wrote:Don't forget to add an incorrect macron. It's vital to add to the irritation factor.
Roomazi is meant as a way to write in Japanese without kanji or kana. I imagine most Japanese persons expect foreign learners of the language to be well acquainted with its writing conventions.

From what I remember about Japanese people, they do not expect foreigners to know their language as well as a native speaker would. So much so that, until not very long ago, most Japanese persons would feel uneasy around a foreigner that spoke fluent Japanese. Or, rather, Japanese persons would consider it unnatural for a non-Asian person to speak the language to a high degree of fluency.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by tekesta »

daal wrote:Everyone knows that the OP was referring to a game record. Despite the blowhard replies that the word kifu was being used inaccurately, I still don't know why, and am inclined to care less and start using Japanese words incorrectly just to see who it riles.
I imagine Japanophiles would be the only ones guaranteed to pitch a fit when incorrect use of a Japanese term occurs. Most Japanese per se would not care since they do not expect non-Japanese persons to be fluent in Japanese to the degree characteristic of a Japan-born Japanese person.

Maybe your post provoked snarky replies because it seems hard to get a handle on. Why should one form of nourishment lead to stronger muscles and bones and the other to body tissue? How do you determine that one aspect of go is more yin or yang than another? How does yin and yang balance each other - is this an ideal or is it viewed as something that occurs automatically? What I mean by my last question is, if we assume that your categorizations are ok, does Chinese philosophy say that an excess of yin always brings about more yang or just when a person is in balance?
I'll have to confess that my descriptions were metaphorical and Westerners tend to avoid use of metaphor, instead preferring accurate descriptions.

Perhaps we should bring on board a Chinese person acquainted with the light & shadow concept as described in Taoist philosophy. This person may help clear things up :mrgreen:

In the event that that does not happen, here is a Wikipedia quote on the topic:

Yin is characterized as slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity, and nighttime.

Yang, by contrast, is fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and aggressive; and is associated with fire, sky, the sun, masculinity and daytime.[18]
Yin refers to actions and characteristics that are associated with the female (soft) aspect. For instance, wet, dark places are known to be yin. A shadowy, humid forest may fall into this description. A dark cave is another such place.

Yang refers to actions and characteristics that are associated with the male (hard) aspect. One example is a dry, sunny spot. Deserts consisting of little more than sand and rocks are like this. So are sun-facing sides of mountains. This is the image conveyed by the character 陽 .

This association also exists in Japanese place names. For example, the southern strip of the Chuugoku region that faces the Seto Inland Sea is known as San'yoo, or side of the mountain facing the sun. The northern strip that faces the Sea of Japan is known as San'in, or side of the mountain that faces away from the sun, i.e. shadow.

Having said the above, I say that passive replaying of game records can be considered a yin activity, since there is no focus, but rather passive internalization of patterns of play. Doing Go puzzles requires focus, which would make it a yang activity.

As to your hypothesis that replaying kifu (is that some kind of donkey?) will bring about the ability to analyze board positions, who know? Try it out! My feeling is that the more passively (yinly?) you replay the games, the less it will add to your ability to analyze board positions. Replaying a game doesn't have to be sitting back and watching - you can also be trying to make and justify the decisions yourself.
Whenever I hear someone who has never replayed a pro game record say that one should attempt to analyze a game from the start, it reminds me of someone who plays Association football without ever having seen anyone else play it, let alone seen a match on TV.

My personal experience indicates that after a long while of passively replaying games, enough info has been stored in the brain to allow one to make educated guesses on what occurs during play. Passive becomes active, in short. I am not yet at any high level of analysis, but I am able to make out just a few things whenever I replay a pro game record.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by yang738 »

it is the first time for me to heard such a theory for considering replaying kifu as Yin and L&D as Yang.

for the most cases , the balance is essential between Yin and Yang in Chinease traditional theory.
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Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?

Post by Elom »

Pofessional Record Replay (PRR) seems like a mental metaphor for an "aerobic" (oxygen-based, generally for fitness) activity, while tsumego appears to be more "anaerobic" (generally for muscle building, strength training), of which there are yin&yan versions of both (long distance marathon/walking up and down while reading a book, benchpress/carrying a heavy backpack while reading a book).
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