Why is pro Go in Japan gender segregated?

[oren]

Fujisawa Rina has stated her goal is to make it to one of the major title's leagues, and she knows it's going to be very difficult. However, there is no system bias against her or any female in any of the tournaments in Japan.

[Uberdude]

Ah.... As it happens, "You play like a woman" is used as an insult to go-players in Japan.

Funny. I have heard Chinese and Koreans say, "You play like you're Japanese" with the exact same intent.

In my experience, it's not a blanket insult, but more a stereotype (somewhat true I think) of Japanese Go being rather softer and less fighty, and more based on good shape than crazy reading. So if a bad move is soft it could be criticised as Japanese style, but also when ahead a solid simple honte move could also be praised as Japanese style.

[Drew]

I read Go Nation: Chinese Masculinities and the Game of Weiqi in China a few weeks ago, and it's clear that in China there are significant social pressures associating weiqi as a masculine activity.

Fascinating! I visited a typical weiqi school for children in a 2nd-tier Chinese city last year and the student gender was evenly split, though I didn't count heads. I had no idea that there was a gender bias. Do you recommend the book?

[jeromie]

Do you recommend the book?

Yes. There are some gaps in the presentation of the material, but it was an interesting read and there are not a lot of English texts that use go as a lens for exploring broader cultural issues.

[gowan]

However, there is no system bias against her or any female in any of the tournaments in Japan.

There is no systematic bias within the go world but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women. We know of the old custom that wives walk a few paces in back of their husbands. I remember that in the mid-1980's it was considered daring and making a feminist statement for a woman to wear blue jeans. Then there are the softer language usages identified as female speech. There has been a lot of progress in societal women's treatment but these societal biases translate into concrete ways. In the USA the lower rate of achievement of women in scientific and engineering subjects, and management in business, is attributable to societal bias. I would expect that societal bias in Japan would manifest itself in women's go performance.

P.S. I believe that there are societal biases against women in Korea and China, too, and how is the male/female balance in the higher dan ranks in those societies?

[Elom]

I was just wondering if anyone could explain why Go is gender segregated in Japan (maybe Korea and China too, I don't know much about the pro systems there.) I won't bother typing out all the benefits of having men and women competing together, because I feel like we could all come up with a sizable list, I just don't see why they haven't gotten rid of "Men's Honinbo" and "Women's Honinbo" and just have "Honinbo."

Responding to the original question, you could find preliminary matches for every major tournament in the last couple of years:

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/040.html

Female players are written with red higlight.

If you need to look up any of the names,

http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/index.html

And to check any players rating, use mamuma's table (probably the best. Ever)

Fujisawa Rina has stated her goal is to make it to one of the major title's leagues, and she knows it's going to be very difficult. However, there is no system bias against her or any female in any of the tournaments in Japan.

That's interesting, because according my analysis of the preliminaries of every tournament listed, she is arguably the best peforming female professional (in open tournaments) very recently.

Maybe the secret is preschool kids and toddlers. Unless this is a terrible miscalculation, by the age of 7 your mind usually has already been somewhat polluted with various stereotypes (including gender-based ones).

Anyway, this may be going off topic again. Back to the original theme, I had assumed that in Japan specifically, females are allowed to participate in the open qualification, but barely any have ever done this. This is due to the fact that, in a nutshell, if you can't even make it to the A-league as an insei and _Stay_ there, you stand almost no chance of passing the exam (not to say this is a hard and fast rule). I haven't found one female insei who managed to do this searching through the past records.

Ironically, my impression was that professional Igo in Japan is probably slightly less gender-segregated than Korea and China, so the topic may inadvertently seem just a little unfair to some (assuming my original assumption is on the right track).

[EdLee]

but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.

Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

[Bill Spight]

but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.

Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

It would not surprise me if some companies had that policy. Japan is predominantly a Buddhist country, and in traditional Buddhism the wife controls the family finances.

[sybob]

but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.

Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

Could be, might be in certain circles. Is or was not uncommon, not only in Japan. But I doubt this applies in general. If it was true, then why doesn't Japan have a female prime minister?

[ez4u]

but societal in Japan there is definitely bias against women.

Hi Gowan, I heard (a rumor) that in Japan, there's some law that requires that the husband's salary be deposited directly into either the wife's bank account, or at least a joint account between the couple. Or, maybe some companies have this policy ? Have you heard of anything about this ?

Nonsense. Japanese banks do not even allow joint accounts. A fairly frequent topic on variety shows and so on is how much money wives hide from their husbands and how much husbands hide from their wives!

[Mike Novack]

Could be, might be in certain circles. Is or was not uncommon, not only in Japan. But I doubt this applies in general. If it was true, then why doesn't Japan have a female prime minister?

Look at Bill's comment (although I don't think that's because Buddhist ---- even Shinto households)

You are making the mistake of assuming that being in charge/control of the household expenses means the same thing as that would imply in our culture. Sorry, but it doesn't. Women can be expected to "run the household" and still be in a submerged/subservient position.

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)

[Boidhre]

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)

Very much this. You'll still get some comments about getting a proper job if you're male and the homemaker in Ireland. It's getting better year on year but such attitudes only change slowly.

[EdLee]

Nonsense. Japanese banks do not even allow joint accounts.

Hi Dave, forget the joint accounts; just direct deposit of the husband's salary to the wife's account -- you have not heard of anything like this ?

[EdLee]

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)

Have people also heard of this: the wife sets a "curfew" time: after which she would lock the door so the husband cannot enter the home; he'd have to stay the night in a motel, etc. ( Not necessarily unique to Japan. Could happen in other countries or cultures, too. )

[hyperpape]

You are making the mistake of assuming that being in charge/control of the household expenses means the same thing as that would imply in our culture. Sorry, but it doesn't. Women can be expected to "run the household" and still be in a submerged/subservient position.

Running the household could be considered beneath a proper man's concern (only women do THAT)

Absolutely. Actually, even in the US, women control a majority of household spending, but we're not a female dominated society.