#245 Kirby vs. paK0

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paK0
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Expected, gotta decide between M8 and M9
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Bill Spight
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or here. :)
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paK0
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X B O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks like bad shape, but it seems to leave behind less bad-aji than the hane
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Uberdude »

Finally paK0 reveals that he really is a kyu player and not a dan player in disguise. ;-)
Atari on top side is huge now.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:
Finally paK0 reveals that he really is a kyu player and not a dan player in disguise. ;-)
Atari on top side is huge now.


My guess is that Kirby is not going to play that atari now. ;)
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . W X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Several big places now, but I'll try to make use of my thickness in the center.

I can take the initiative on the left side of the board. if I can get some profit there, at some point, I have to come back to the right side and make some points there, so black doesn't get the entire right side.

That's for later, though.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting K15, but either way I will extend. I'm not really commited to saving that stone or anything, but if he wants to have it he will have to work for it.

Best case: I can sacrifice those stones and gain some thickness, preferably towards the left side. I'm not sure if that is possible, but I'll keep it in the back of my head.
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Bill Spight
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Bill Spight »

paK0 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was expecting K15, but either way I will extend. I'm not really commited to saving that stone or anything, but if he wants to have it he will have to work for it.


Well, my prediction was wrong. :(

But bravo, pak0! Good thinking. :) Such a player is hard to beat. :D
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
be immersed
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by moyoaji »

So far, I think this game is brilliant.

Kirby recognizes the early disadvantage and respects pak0 enough not to play insane or foolhardy moves in the opening. Kirby is banking on his superior playing ability, not an opponent's stupidity. There is a willingness to poke and prod around the board, asking for a little of something everywhere, but not everything in any one place.

Likewise, pak0 acknowledges that Kirby is stronger, but does not become overly timid. It can be hard to trust in ones reading when facing a stronger opponent. Still, pak0 is not surrendering fights and saying "well, my opponent is 9 stones stronger, so I must just be misreading." Nor does pak0 simply follow Kirby around the board and hope for the best.

These players have good plans and good attitudes. It is not that both have played flawlessly; it is that both have played correctly for their skill level. That is all that can be asked for in an amateur game.

I do hope they continue this match. At the rate this is going, it could be a fantastic example of amateur handicap go.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Hey, sorry for not notifying you, but because life happened I put go on the backburner rather spontaneously :sad: .

But I found time to play again recently, so I hope we can resume this :bow: .

I'll look over the game and my comments and then post a move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First thoughts:

Soo, that game is a thing I guess.

Overall it does not seem to look bad for me(which is what one would expect in a high handicap game).

I think I handled the top rather poorly, and the middle does not look ideal as well, but neither is a disaster just yet.

The right side has quite a bit of aji for white left, but its still pretty peachy.

A play around M14 would be big, tying my groups together and giving more aji to my string at the top. The cut at K8 also looks juicy.

First I have to decide what to do about the approach though. It seems like really good timing from Kirby, since I have trouble coming up with a good reply.

I don't want to just tenuki, a double approach is probably too good for him, since he already has stones at the top side.

Simply backing off will make it too easy for him to tenuki and I think he wants to get a move around M14 as well.

Kicking might be reasonable, but after F16 he can probably undercut me too easily.

A tight pincer would be nice here, but it might be too overconcentrated in regards to my stone on the left.

Attaching on top might be possible, but I gotta try to remember some of the joseki first and how they relate to sente.

Decisions, decisions :scratch:
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by gowan »

White playing against 9-stone handicap can get some solace from the old "proverb" that says every time Black loses sente unnecessarily is equivalent to losing one handicap stone.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Surprised this thread is starting again - shouldn’t I have won by time? :-)

It’s almost amusing.

IIRC, the handicap was too high when we played last time, and chances are, he’s improved more than I have since then.

Oh well - could be fun. I think a little Malkovich could do me good these days.
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by paK0 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lets go with the pincer, my initial concerns still stand, but it seems like the most reasonable option.

If he jumps I'll play F17. That should give me a good result, since he can't press because of the D10 Stone.

If he goes into the corner I'll block towards the bottom. He will get some territory on the top and I'll be overconcentrated, but then his middle strength will go mostly to waste.

I think the best moves for him are tenuki or a double approach. If he double approaches I will attach(probably to the top stone) or split at E15, if he tenukies I'll have to see where he goes first, probably somewhere around M14, to put more pressure on my two-space jump..
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Re: #245 Kirby vs. paK0

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don’t know what to do, but jumping out seems like my best option. Then again, what do I know? I lost a game by like 60 points yesterday..
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