Revisiting Go

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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Exams being finished, I had time for a game! Specifically in my newly acquired (personal interpretation of) "Yamashita Style".

Playing and fighting like this was terrifying/exhilarating. As I was anticipating, my usual territorial moves felt irrelevant (self-fulfilling?). I seem to have lucked out in the fighting. Much of this game felt quite out of my hands (though perhaps that was true of my opponent as well).

I would love people's insights and comments. Oh, I'm black.


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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

My review.
7 ... This is a strange move, though I am loath to call it a mistake. More normal would be P3.

8 ... Should still have been at R7, I think. Or perhap R10. It is a feature of such high [black] stones that tenuki to a third line approach is very easy.

13 ... Perhaps K4 should be considered.

14-19 ... I feel black gained from this exchange.

49 ... Tenuki should be possible, and tenuki to L5 is urgent.

55 ... Seems a huge concession. Actually, I hallucinated an extra liberty for P2 which would have made it a slightly better move. N2 seems possible, tough and strong. White can't manage two groups considering all of black's liberties.

72 ... Seems like a mistake (by a small margin, at least). I wonder if white could reduce black while building a big moyo on top using K6 aji, say starting around tengen? White can look forward to playing K2 later and black would not have much.

75 ... Seems heavy (if less so than standing up directly). I wonder if I could start F18 here, with the latent threat of standing up at L16 later?

91 ... The life here and sacrifice of the corner to white was painful (though this deep invasion sort of acheived its goals of attacking E17 and denying a big top territory)

101... I got cold feet about G17 connect, but I feel like it was a more practical move.

103... I think white initially missed the goal of playing H15. If white just defends I think the game is close.

104... I think white should have a better exploitation of K3 than this (notwithstanding I was lucky later in the game).

130... J4 seems more lethal.

142... K9 should be lethal. Black's problems stem from allowing N2 originally : Honest play should have planned a concession in this fight.

153... Not that small but still small gote. Just C11?

White's endgame was a bit weak.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »



My review (still would like others' comments).
13 ... Bad move? I think this shored up white's somewhat strange opening.

50 ... I wonder if this could be tried at the more warlike B12 vital point? After all this attack is white's entire game.

56 ... Respond at F11, request to see black's second eye? White's board will stay stronger, I think.

70 ... Perhaps I could consider M7 to make white's middle thick, if a bit vague.

82 ... I guess this was slack? G13 seems to use white's stones better and has odds on killing black, I think.

139... I think D17 is too good for black to pass up. Ergo,

138... It's tempting to overplay but nothing seems to kill.

195... Just a few points. I think the game was quite close here.

200... As I lived, the game was a wash for black I think.

237... Was gote !


I think this influence -> fighting style inasmuchas I'm getting it almost necessarily creates difficult fighting (well, if the opponent decides to "take too much" and fight).

The fighting is hard and fuseki is more precipitous than more conventional, well-trodden paths. However, hard fighting is not an advantage for the opponent either and I think these two, anyway, have felt off-balanced and fumbled times they could have won.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by paK0 »

I don't really have anything constructive to say, but keep it up, those games are really entertaining.

I do feel sorry for your opponents though, that seems really annoying to play against :lol:
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Shaddy »

@86 I think G14 could kill.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »


...Assuming that upload stays working...

I had to deal with some things that did not leave time for go for a bit. This is my first game in a while.

I got a bit slack as the game continued. I love this kind of game with the two massive, solidified frameworks in a close game.

:b67: should have been a connection.

This game probably should have spawned dogfights.


Edit:
Importantly, :w90: simply did not live at all. It somehow looked reminiscent of a different shape that was alive, I guess?

Perhaps :b61: could have connected already.

Of course, the earlier part of the game is more interesting but more difficult.

Taking issues in order.

:b9: may have been a mistake in direction, and could have been eg. D14 to stop white's big moyo and play a more territorial game.

:b13: seems a mistake. It strengthens white on top for not enough (albeit it sort of serendipitously worked out later). Also, those two stones did not need help. Actually I would like to "have" to take the corner later.
- Instead, perhaps R10 or 9 directly. It looks like a nice move.

:b17: I disliked when I played it, and I think it was wrong now. Perhaps D18 was more possible, because I would like to damage top. An invasion does seem necessary. Hm.

...That sacrifice debacle worked out somehow and sufficiently, but it wasn't good.
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Still playing rather than being studious

Post by Loons »



One property of the go hobby is the ability to toggle between studying a lot and playing a lot, I guess.

I'm resisting the urge to label my play as "gimmicky".

Games do become a little more DDK-like ; you must judge situations that are varying degrees out of your depth all about the board while struggling not to keep losing track of the board. Which is good! I don't want to just marshal my existing skill against someone else's but rather, run headfirst into [our] limits.

Then, like DDK games it seems somewhat arbitrary who lost with all the missed opportunities (mostly on the loser's side).
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Another win on KGS :
Also, can I just link games from KGS?


I do sometimes lose embarrassingly, especially correspondence games :


:b15: I think black is okay to here.

:b17: Now I think P5 was more consistent (albeit even less territorial). Also fixing the cut immediately feels good.

:b19: Bad aji keshi. Heavy. Rather, P5. White slightly owes a stone but nothing feels good.

:b23: Still trying out playing around here. It's sente and discourages white from taking the corner, but introduces the big white territory/thick moyo on top I occasionally lose from. So-

:b25: I think this contact is a mistake. White is thick with M17, so black can't play strongly. Instead, I think I should play next top left, of which avoiding leads to missing the time to invade. Perhaps C17 3-3 invasion immediately, followed by K14 cap? K14 cap directly ?

:w34: Well placed. Black's mistakes leave no really good answer.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Finding time for go seems to be no problem when I have physics work to do.

I'm posting victories not just because they're exciting, but also because the standard advice - review your losses - seems to ignore the positive idea of "seeing what has worked (and why?)", which I think is especially important for trying to stick to a specific style.



:w8: seemed perhaps slack.

Happy with my fuseki, though perhaps :b23: could have been the safer R8.

:w44: , at least, was gote endgame. Cf. O5.

However, :b45: looks like a candidate for a potentially heavy mistake. Imagine white had simply defended with - P3 N4 N8 and black seems in trouble. Well, perhaps :b45: was important. I would have liked to play a reduction rather than an abject invasion, but perhaps some kind of invasion was called for.

Attacking P7 group did settle a huge top right - and left an avenue for my opponent's game losing mistake later.

Maybe I should have prioritized e7 jump before my opponent's cap.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Well, this was a really good idea which I shall try and recapture.

I have gradually segued into playing a bit again lost my first million games and was beaten down to 1k (should make a new account). My rank is so heavy that I have a 9000% attrition rate and I'm still 1k.

Initially I suffered from a bit of opening nihilism (you know, it seems anyone can play anything in the opening and it seems not to matter). However I settled down to consistently playing what I remember as mukai komoku (if possible) and then a Chinese enclosure as black. It was an opening from breakfast's now oldish New Moves (I think).

I really think my idea to stay consistent in openings and joseki is good (because familiarity is a parameter of results).

Utilising this thread I shall recapture my circa 2000 Yamashita style.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Qualitative description of my last ten games, in reverse order:
My opponent playing black played a deviant sanrensei against my mukai komoku (why not play :b2: facing the 3-4?)
They tried to take three sides of the board at the same time and died everywhere

My opponent playing black took territory for influence in a two space pincer joseki deviation (?), THEN tried to build moyo everywhere, squeezed a lot of toothpaste everywhere and lost without dying anywhere with only 40 points.

My opponent playing black in rotating komoku tried to take left, top, right and bottom in exchange for thickness, and died big in the middle of the board.

My opponent playing white nirensei against my mukai komoku took gote with a wrong direction approach against the wrong 3-4, then tried to live bottom left and seperately left in exchange for thickness, then tried to live top left and died.

My opponent playing white against my mukai komoku micro Chinese enclosed the wrong 4-4, then took bottom, went to live on left, went to live on left again, then tried to keep bottom right and died on bottom.

My opponent playing black against 3-4 4-3 approached and took, split-wise right, middle, left and bottom, bottom left, left again and then top as well (with varying degrees of violence) then died big in late yose while playing from an uninteresting 25 points behind before komi.

I played white in a long game against a facing enclosure. I attempted to occupy left, bottom-left, top (?), top-right, right and bottom in a moyo game and lost by 5.5 points (without komi).


... The last three games are just more uninteresting wins.


The losing player in each case played everywhere, intent on taking whatever points it seemed the other player might get. In, what were found to be, unfavourable exchanges or deaths in each case.

Happily my last (the first mentioned) game was a 2d who agreed to play evenly with me, so KGS has bequeathed 1d upon me again.


The pithy lesson here, I think, is that one must let the opponent have some good moves, because simply trying to play all the opponent's good moves is thin and incoherent.

This moral reminds me of a trend in the Yamashita games I was examining, where moyo strategies always start with a seeming change of direction. In a joseki, one player both takes territory and denies one moyo direction, however creating a new moyo direction (which is then taken).
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

My last two games had a sort of strange symmetry.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing black, W+T (I accepted 5 + 5*20).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O X X X . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing white. W+R (100 moves and three more dead groups later).
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by skydyr »

Loons wrote:My last two games had a sort of strange symmetry.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Playing black, W+T (I accepted 5 + 5*20).


Assuming it's black to play, my instinct is that black should be able to win the capturing race, but reading it all in limited time seems difficult.
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X O X O . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . O O . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I did think black was one liberty up. It's messy though, right?
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Re: Revisiting Go

Post by Loons »

Another brace of games. Certainly these 2 dans have put a dent in my winning streak! With proper komi, -12.5 and +2.5 as black. Comments are welcome.

In the loss, I think my J8 was a pass at a critical point, and then my attachment response to L17 was bad. Knight's move instead?




Edit: A cursory look at a database suggests H3 was bad vs say, J5.
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