That's funny, I saw your message, and a few hours later, I went back to my translation of "Shape UP!" to gobook format and started to convert that page :



I'm happy as there are a few things starting to converge in my study

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Or 'c' (which lives unconditionally, but black can take a stone in sente, whereas 'b' fights a ko for a bigger group).

Nice game, a few thoughts:



I'd say that if you played a little lighter, the game may have been counted (or won ).

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

Thanks Uberdude, Actualy I missed that 'b' was not unconditionally alive...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Hi Elom,

Thank you very much for your comments !

I like at E3

I agree, , are not good at all

was to build a table shape to make eyes, but I agree here too, I should first try to run out, then make eyes ultimately.

still trying to build shape that make eyes... :w56 is a second table shape... and is a try at a mouth shape , I'm still trying to live, but black get too much, and despite all these move, I'm still not fully alive...

At I understood that was all over for me...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

It's those L groups again!

Cannot resists to post that position of a game between My daugther (8 years old) which is white and my son (6 years old)
not a really common opening is it ?

I think I will choose black here...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

I expect that Black won that game. But I think that White shows more promise.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Let's get back to joseki with :

Joskei #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 2 3 9 O . 1 . .
$$ | . . 8 6 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

So... what did i know about this one...
Maybe the first thing I'm happy to know is that the hane at doesn't work for black... and make things even worse... the order seems important too, must be played before the cut at

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 3 . @ . 1 .
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]

Back to the original joseki,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . c . b . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . a . . . ,
$$ | . . O X X @ . X . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

It seems also that can still wake up and be quite annoying later... when I'm black I ofen endsup playing at 'a' but then lose the sente...

I also ofen see black at 'b' followed by white 'c' at the end of that joseki, I use to read somewhere that black at 'b' is sente, but I don't remember exactly why...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Sometimes it's good to hold off on B because you don't know what you want to do in the future, but it's somewhat sente because black can attach at C as a followup to mostly confine white to the corner. D is another similar sente move, that black might have wanted instead of B, which is why you hold off.

Thanks skydyr,

Sure this one is really fine if tenuki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X X O . X . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

I finally remembered where I read the other idea... that was in "So you want to play GO vol. 3"
so if , white should not tenuki because that may lead to this one :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 2 tenuki
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X X O . X . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Or thickly block the centre, and white runs into hane at head of two bad shape if he extends (so might play 4 at a):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 2 tenuki
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . a O 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X X O . X . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

Playing the knight's move prematurely is a very common mistake I see around sdk levels. The reason it can be a mistake is if white simply answers black still has various shape weaknesses as marked, and white gets stronger on the left side so black reduces his potential there (no more side approach as in diagram above, which is often a better move). However, white's answer can sometimes be too slow, it depends a lot on the lower side and how impressive a moyo black is building there: if that area becomes a huge territory probably answer was too slow, but if white has a good chance to invade or reduce it later then white can happily answer patiently knowing black is not gaining as much as white does from the exchange. Using those weaknesses to do things inside later requires good sabaki skills, here is a nice example to study: http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/game/5737?move=31 .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . 1 . a . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . b . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . e ,
$$ | . . O X X O . X . d
$$ | . . O O X c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

Thanks for that example... that's really outstanding... how can they read that ahead...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Joskei #5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . # . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X 6 . . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 5 . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

This is one of my favorite joseki, both as black or white, especially when there is a san-ren-sei.

I like the shape formed by and

I also know this variation, but I prefer the first one :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . # . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X 6 7 . . . ,
$$ | . . 3 5 8 1 . 2 . .
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm10
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . # . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . .
$$ | . . X X X O 7 . . ,
$$ | . . O O X O . X . .
$$ | . . 2 1 O 3 6 . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . 8 . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

Also saw this one from time to time, but still prefer the first variation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . # . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X 6 8 . . . , .
$$ | . 7 3 5 . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

back to Joseki #1,
I'm trying to calculate the value of 'a' to better judge when it's worth to play that move.

I'm sure my method is not 100%, but here is my calculation...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . X . . O . . O .
$$ | . . a O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]

If black plays first :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | C C . X . . . . . , .
$$ | C C X . . O . . O . .
$$ | C C 1 O . . . . . . .
$$ | C C . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

black 8
white 0
so black +8

If white play first :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . 3 X . . O . . O . .
$$ | C 5 1 O . . . . . . .
$$ | C C C . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

black 0
white 4
so white +4

so is 'a' 12 pts ? but black is a tenuki in that variation... so how to calculate that

Any idea ?

[edit]
Here is a game I have found on ps.waltheri.net
http://ps.waltheri.net/database.html#/g ... 1?move=100

on that game, the move was number 100, that's later then I excpected...
[/edit]

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

You have to also judge whether A is sente or gote, and remember to add the value of the followups... full value for sente followups and, traditionally, half value for gote ones.

This particular example, while common, is not a trivial exercise by any means.

Thank you skydyr,

I just saw in a book that the value would be more something like 16 pts instead of my 12 pts estimation... sure not an easy one to start counting.

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Hi oca,

If W wants to reply, at (b).
If tenuki, B can play (a).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X . b O . . O . .
$$ | . . 1 O a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

After , W has a few choices depending on the local and global situations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . e . X . . . . . , .
$$ | . . X d . O . . O . .
$$ | . 2 1 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . c . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

From my experience only -- I cannot speak for others -- at these levels, it's usually fairly obvious
when it's big enough to play these moves. At least, I don't remember even one situation
that stood out as being difficult to decide.

Hi Edlee,

Here are two situations, starting with a double nin-ren-sei
In both situation, let's say the disucssed end game move ( in first diagram and in the second one) is played (way) too early...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . e . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . a 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In both diagrams, by some kind of 'reflex move' I'm quite sure that I would have replyed at 'a'

In the first diagram, 'b' to 'e' are other ideas that should be better, as I think the best reply to an early end game move is to ignore it...
'b' looks nice, but how to 'mesure' that this is a more valuable move then 'a' ?

I think one answer is "Common sense" / experience / intuition, but I would like to quantify that, just to help me becoming more confident when ignoring early end game move...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

Do you really need numbers to prefer this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . a 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

to this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 7 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's worth saying that black's answer in the corner at 7 is a smaller move than white's 6 there, so it's a bigger mistake.

P.S. Here was an interesting thread a while ago where some people wanted to play a biggish endgame move instead of a more opening type move elsewhere: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7766