Handling approach on both side

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:39 am

Thank you Bill and Ed for all this material !

so... before I saw all this, I started to think about that first question :

EdLee wrote: did you consider the hane ?
$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

and the first answer that went into my mind for white was to cut (maybe I'm traumatised

):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

but when placing a few real stone on the goban, I saw that

isn't that great

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

white

at 'a' doesn't work that well either... so I think my first fear to be cut by

isn't justified.

Now to the quality of

here :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . X . O . O X . . | $$ , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

We talked a bit about this move at the end of the game with a stronger player (~3k) and he also told us that this was no a so good idea.

but... that was at least a move I was not used to... I think I would have played better if white played this one for example :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X . O . . 1 . . | $$ , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . a b . . |[/go]

This a move a better know how to answer, especialy with a san-ren-sei, because I used to read pattern of the san-ren-sei and this move is taled in detail in this book.

I'm also quite confortable with

at 'b', but a bit less with 'a'.

To summarize :

So what I learned here is that this "snake" to the center is not "always" a bad idea, especially if both opponent groups on sides are weak.
Then, looking at Bill's variations, the key seems to be in fighting

instead of just trying to live like I did in the game (where I also misreaded a false eye)

Finally to come back to that 'a', I'm working on a Joseki I saw in a french book by fan-hui which is called "Cinq Proverbes" and that goes like this :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . 2 6 1 8 . 9 . . | $$ , . . 5 4 . X 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

but I still don't understand each of the move... especially

... joseki and problems in this book are not that commented, some concept are presented, and then you have to work them by your own (which I like

...)

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:33 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O C . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O C O X C . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 3 O X X X C . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 C O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

There is a heuristic that Bruce Wilcox proposed called Five Alive. What it means is that in a tactical fight -- not necessarily a life and death situation or a semeai --, a solid group with 5 or more dame is very probably safe. That thought might embolden you to play

.

Not that your play is bad.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:17 am

Thanks, that's good to know... I will try to integrate this in my playing

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:48 am

EdLee wrote:
oca wrote:Sure this is really different, and in the same time only one more stone
Hi oca, W has two more local stones, one for each of his two groups.
( W 6 local stones vs. B 4 local stones; W has 2 more. )
That's one thing Boidhre's diagram illustrates:
W needs two more moves to settle both his groups.

The other thing I was aiming at was

threatens little and is merely running, whereas in the original diagram it is much more active.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:19 am

oca wrote:
and the first answer that went into my mind for white was to cut (maybe I'm traumatised ):

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

but when placing a few real stone on the goban, I saw that isn't that great

If your thought against black 1 was because white 2 cut looked scary for your corner group, then tenuki should be even scarier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the previous diagram was scary for the black corner, then logically this one is even worse for black as black doesn't have that cutting stone to help the corner. (Now of course it's not quite so simple in that the cutting stone could be a liability you want to save and therefore white can threaten it for some moves to gain strength to then attack the corner.)

Btw, if I was white I would jump, aiming at a next to surround the corner (can you see the L group incoming again?).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:50 am

Uberdude wrote:Btw, if I was white I would jump, aiming at a next to surround the corner (can you see the L group incoming again?).

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But you would never be White with such a lousy position in the top right corner.

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:56 pm

Uberdude wrote:...

Btw, if I was white I would jump, aiming at a next to surround the corner (can you see the L group incoming again?).

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 1 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Oh yes, something like that I suppose :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 7 C | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . O X C C | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X 3 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 4 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . O . 2 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

[EDIT] houps, I think

is wrong... should be inside at T18 is it ? [/EDIT]

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Handling approach on both side

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