quasi-joseki

[skydyr]

I've been reading The Direction of Play, by Kajiwara, and a particular comment of his has gotten me thinking about joseki and game databases in general. The specific comment, for those with the book, is on page 49, the commentary on diagram 31.

Given this board position in an amateur game:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . X . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . X . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

His suggestion is that black respond to with the three space high pincer at , since it balances well with the other corner and leads to a good result for black if white takes the corner at the 3-3 point. Playing the two space high pincer instead, as happened in the game, gives black problems later in the top left.

Normally, as I understand it, the 3-space high pincer isn't played very often in professional games because it's too soft on the approaching stone, but in this case he feels it is exactly the right move. Of course, black has made several mistakes in the game already to lead him to this point, and a professional would not generally be in a situation where this came up in the first place.

This makes me wonder, how many other uncommon joseki or nonstandard responses are discounted via things like pro game database searches because professionals avoid the situations that would make them the best response? Situations, of course, that amateur players are much more likely to play into. And by extension, are we shortchanging ourselves by looking at joseki dictionaries or pro game databases and deciding that a move isn't good because it isn't listed or common?

[Boidhre]

My copy of GoGoD gives 1453 games with this pincer. Versus 14,000 odd for the one space low pincer. It's rarer but not hyper rare or anything. What's interesting is that it seems have more variations for white's next move than the other 4,4 pincers by a fair amount. That may be a turn off?

[Kirby]

This makes me wonder, how many other uncommon joseki or nonstandard responses are discounted via things like pro game database searches because professionals avoid the situations that would make them the best response? Situations, of course, that amateur players are much more likely to play into. And by extension, are we shortchanging ourselves by looking at joseki dictionaries or pro game databases and deciding that a move isn't good because it isn't listed or common?

If you think the move you found in the joseki dictionary and/or pro game database is the only move, then yes, I think you're shortchanging yourself.

I think it's useful to learn joseki and/or the "proper" way to play in a particular situation. That's Level 1.

After you've mastered Level 1, you can learn when the "proper" way is not proper, and when you should play something nonstandard. I think that's Level 2.

[Bill Spight]

I've been reading The Direction of Play, by Kajiwara, and a particular comment of his has gotten me thinking about joseki and game databases in general. The specific comment, for those with the book, is on page 49, the commentary on diagram 31.

Given this board position in an amateur game:

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . X . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . O . X . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

His suggestion is that black respond to with the three space high pincer at , since it balances well with the other corner and leads to a good result for black if white takes the corner at the 3-3 point. Playing the two space high pincer instead, as happened in the game, gives black problems later in the top left. Normally, as I understand it, the 3-space high pincer isn't played very often in professional games because it's too soft on the approaching stone, but in this case he feels it is exactly the right move.

Kajiwara was a creative, original thinker. He was also prone to overstatement. While his argument about the value of the three space high pincer is well taken, I doubt if it would be the main choice of pros in this position, then or now.

Of course, black has made several mistakes in the game already to lead him to this point, and a professional would not generally be in a situation where this came up in the first place.

This makes me wonder, how many other uncommon joseki or nonstandard responses are discounted via things like pro game database searches because professionals avoid the situations that would make them the best response? Situations, of course, that amateur players are much more likely to play into. And by extension, are we shortchanging ourselves by looking at joseki dictionaries or pro game databases and deciding that a move isn't good because it isn't listed or common?

Good point! IMO, to try to choose among pro moves based upon frequency is straining at gnats. Now, if a move isn't listed in a large database, that usually is because it is not a good move. And if a move is listed only a handful of times, it may be a mistake. Pros do make mistakes.

But consider the keima response to the keima approach to the 4-4, which is one of the most frequent responses today. If there had been a database of pro moves in 1900, that play would hardly have shown up. What would have shown up a lot is the ogeima response. And, considering the centuries long practice of starting with setup stones on the 4-4 points, it would have shown up a hell of a lot. In fact, it is move 2 in the oldest extant game record. Truly a time tested play. Just because it has gone out of favor does not mean that it is an inferior play. (It may be, but if so, it loses only a fraction of a point in general.)

The temptation to judge a play based upon how common or uncommon it is is one reason for the advice not to study joseki too early. It is important to develop some whole board judgement first.

[Uberdude]

My understanding for why the 3 space high approach has fallen out of favour with modern pros is that after the low double approach all of black's choices end up with a little inefficient shape. But here I wonder if white r10 would itself end up inefficient after the normal continuations. Maybe white should high double approach as then r10 is well placed to reduce the influence black gets in the usual continuation of white getting territory on the top and black a wall facing the right.

[Mike Novack]

This is presumably why you are studying Kajiwara's book.

Joseki are a local fair division. That does not mean that exact joseki, most popular joseki, etc. is the correct move in this board situation.

In other words, this is precisely a "direction of play" situation where the usual joseki choice is wrong because it ignores the rest of the board. Yes, the move made is not as strong a joseki move for the corner in the upper right. It gives something up there. But look at what it gains for the upper left! Consider also what will happen next. In other words, the move is weaker in the sente sense, but what follow-ups, given the whole board, are now possible.

This is the reason for the proverb "learn joseki and lose two stones". When you just think about the strongest move locally you are forgetting the rest of the board.