Another one bites the dust

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:34 am

Two questions:

1. Biggest mistake White made till move 60? (My take: 28 instead of d6)
2. At which point White's chances to win where below 40%? (My take: from move 60)

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:49 am

Is there a reasonable alternative to :w8:

?

After

it looks like something is wrong already, with all but one of white's stones on the 17th line.

:w26:

Seems like it doesn't have good potential to make life locally, so maybe it's also a mistake?
:w28:

is really jarring though. It feels like abandoning the fight. D7 feels mandatory after :w26:

I like D7 better than D6 because I don't see a second eye anyway, but it widens the position a little with a simple shape.
After :b29:

it seems like it's time to panic.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:47 am

tentano wrote:Is there a reasonable alternative to ?

In the game I thought about it more than a minute. It gives Black a wall and sente, but I still did it, because with that I got the upper side settled and Black couldn't make a shimari there anymore. I think it's ok.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:02 am

looks bad, unless possibly the intention is to cut and fight when B presses. Certainly the result to :w14:

is unacceptable for W, too low and over-concentrated. If you want to play first in that corner, maybe E16? Then if B plays the joseki starting with D17-E17, the W stone at K17 ends up on a good spot.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:15 am

Pippen wrote:
tentano wrote:Is there a reasonable alternative to ?

In the game I thought about it more than a minute. It gives Black a wall and sente, but I still did it, because with that I got the upper side settled and Black couldn't make a shimari there anymore. I think it's ok.

As mitsun says, the result is not good for White. A loss of about 1/2 stone, I think. Also, his suggestion of the high approach at E-16 is usual here.

In the bottom left, better to approach at C-05, making miai of C-03 and C-08.

ystao · Post by **ystao** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:16 am

tentano wrote:Is there a reasonable alternative to ?

After it looks like something is wrong already, with all but one of white's stones on the 17th line.

Seems like it doesn't have good potential to make life locally, so maybe it's also a mistake?
is really jarring though. It feels like abandoning the fight. D7 feels mandatory after I like D7 better than D6 because I don't see a second eye anyway, but it widens the position a little with a simple shape.
After it seems like it's time to panic.

I also agree :w8:

is first questionable move, after :b15:

white is not only very low, but also all on the same side. Maybe E16? I'm not sure.
White chose the wrong joseki in bottom left I think. How about :w18:

D5 looking to settle in corner?
:w28:

is certainly a wrong move, just logically disconnected from :w26:

. After that it's all down-hill, especially after :b45:

. Running back to top equals surrender. White's only chance to win then is to fight in left. Die bigger or live and reduce black territory. It's not the best the fight but white's behind anyway.
:w56:

is only helping reinforcing black wall in the center, You can try G12 and aim for black's weakness on the top wall.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:21 am

There were a number of problem moves in the bottom left, resulting in a running group while Black mounts a good attack. :w30:

at H-05 just invites trouble. Also, :w48:

at K-11 is worth considering, offering a few stones in the corner for a fight in the center.

ystao · Post by **ystao** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:37 am

Bill Spight wrote: Also, at K-11 is worth considering, offering a few stones in the corner for a fight in the center.

Yes, this is also good.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:45 am

mitsun wrote:If you want to play first in that corner, maybe E16? Then if B plays the joseki starting with D17-E17, the W stone at K17 ends up on a good spot.

Amazing. Now that you suggested it I almost feel humiliated for not seeing this obvious superior move (to what I played)^^.

@all: At what point would you have seen no realistic chance to win for White? (Maybe not where you resign, but where you think "Cr..., this will be a long afternoon.)

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:08 pm

Why did you play 6? doesn't this violate the 'Pippen fuseki' idea of splitting the side and then leaving that stone to be treated lightly? Shouldn't 6 have been a play against the lower left or something?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:25 pm

I agree that 8 feels wrong, but it is hard to say that it is really bad - maybe half a point as Bill says.

Move 28? Well, we are all allowed a misclick now and then...

But it is 62 that really disturbs me. You are picking a fight in the shadow of his wall. I would have played P6.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:51 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I agree that 8 feels wrong, but it is hard to say that it is really bad - maybe half a point as Bill says.

Sorry. Half a stone = half a handicap stone = 7 points or so.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:59 am

The sequence :w8:

to

is really bad. The two W stones at K17 and O17 have probably lost half a stone of combined efficiency, as Bill suggests. I am pretty sure that if both players were professional, the game would already be decided.

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:14 am

mitsun wrote:The sequence to is really bad. The two W stones at K17 and O17 have probably lost half a stone of combined efficiency, as Bill suggests. I am pretty sure that if both players were professional, the game would already be decided.

Players aren't professionals.

I wonder about W12, I probably would push a bit longer (gaining points in the corner because disabling Black moves there) instead of jumping ahead with W12 and use the stone already in place at 10-3 to finally "get ahead".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Sth. like this (similar to game but no ''a'') $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 1 3 5 7 . 9 O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 4 6 8 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:56 am

tapir wrote:
mitsun wrote:The sequence to is really bad. The two W stones at K17 and O17 have probably lost half a stone of combined efficiency, as Bill suggests. I am pretty sure that if both players were professional, the game would already be decided.

Players aren't professionals.

I wonder about W12, I probably would push a bit longer (gaining points in the corner because disabling Black moves there) instead of jumping ahead with W12 and use the stone already in place at 10-3 to finally "get ahead".

$$W Sth. like this (similar to game but no ''a'')
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 1 3 5 7 . 9 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 4 6 8 . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Sth. like this (similar to game but no ''a'') $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 1 3 5 7 . 9 O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 2 4 6 8 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Getting that wall in sente feels a lot more valuable than the territory white is taking. Black just needs to make a nice extension down the left side and the game feels hard for white.

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