24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

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Violence
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Violence »

Mr. Price:

Doesn't this move help black? Why did you play there? Because it's double sente?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Violence wrote:Mr. Price:

Doesn't this move help black? Why did you play there? Because it's double sente?


My guess is that it deprives black of this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . b O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 1 X X X X O a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...in which 'a' and 'b' are miai for the second eye.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X B O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 40
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

No choice. While the move does allow White to make a stronger squeeze from the outside (for those who don't understand, picture the difference a move such as J6 by W makes when I have a stone at G4 instead of G3), it provides me with a lifevest of playing H2 to make my second eye. If he takes the time to play H2 (unlikely), it just gives me an extra move to move out safely.

Alright, so now I want to look back at the last 20 moves and just see how things have been going for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 20 - 29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 7 0 . . 1 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 9 3 2 5 B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w20: is expected. Actually, if it was me, I might have bumped :bc: first, and then played :w20: , just feels more natural to me and also prevents :b21: , which helps me settle fairly easily. One thing I'll be adding on my to-do list is to ask someone stronger (or hey, maybe Tabemasu post-game) what the difference between the two ideas are.

:w22: - :b29: can be regarded as a one-way street. It's also joseki, but it's really hard to memorize it the wrong way because the purpose of each moves are very clear. :w22: blocks me from digging too deep into the corner. :b23: tries to get a piece, just enough to settle and make happy life. :w24: - :b27: is a forcing sequence that helps solidify both sides. :w28: prevents me from making the second eye, so naturally I move out with :b29: to try and make eyespace elsewhere while trying to prevent myself from getting sealed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Will go over 30 - 40 on my next move.
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Tabemasu »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Answer to Violence's question: W40 keeps him from being able to live locally and also strengthens my shape. Maybe I could have sealed him in instead, but I'm not really sure that's any better.
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by Suji »

@ Tabemasu:

Why not J6 with the following variation in mind?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O 4 O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wouldn't this be more influential? What am I not seeing?
My plan to become an SDK is here.
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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)

Post by ketchup »

Suji wrote:@ Tabemasu:

Why not J6 with the following variation in mind?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O 4 O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wouldn't this be more influential? What am I not seeing?

I think the overall reasoning is that black's pressure to live is not there any more. In fact, the sequence you show is gote which is worth VERY little. You have to also consider the C11 stone as well. The way Tabemasu is doing it, keeps up the pressure(as black is not comfortably alive) and strengthens both groups giving him a lot more flexibility in the long run I believe. Right now, black is probably trying his hardest to look for a sente sequence to live. I doubt it's going to happen, so Tabemasu will gain in this exchange as he gets a huge sente move to follow up on. I predict he strengthens his stones on the bottom then approaches the 3-4 black stone on the right side.
I know nothing.