At my level, whenever I try to pincer the approach to the star point, my opponents almost always jump. I am sick beyond words of this. Please somebody recommend how to handle an opening such as the one shown below. I am White.
My best guess is a to try to separate the black stones. The move b, I discovered, seems only to strengthen Black.
A similar and equally common annoyance is this one:
Black sometimes plays a instead of 1.
My problem is I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with my White stone. Do I try to attack Black still? Do I leave it as is and continue to take big points? Do I try to settle my stone with a sabaki sequence?
Is it me who's being unreasonable? Or is there something I just don't grasp? The pros usually invade at 3-3 instead of jumping, but I can't see a plan to play as White.
For sure, I could just respond to the approach by playing an ikken tobi. But what if I want to pincer?
I'm just frustrated with fuseki in general. It seems that one of the following always seems to happen:
* I play big moves in the order described in books such as In the Beginning and Fundamental Principles of Go, but my opponent always seems to develop far more quickly.
* I try to develop quickly, but end up missing a vital point or making my positions too thin and suffering for it.
* My opponent seems to invade or reduce prematurely, but I cannot take advantage.
I don't want to resort to playing the same pattern in every game, for instance the Orthodox. But if, as it seems, fuseki ain't my bag, would anybody think that the best practical option? I.e., to study one pattern and stick to it.
Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
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Tami
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Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
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Tami
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
It's a good question. I guess because if I play the ikken tobi instead it means playing my first 3 moves on the same side of the board. Ideally, I would like to get around more quickly.Boidhre wrote:Why pincer and why that pincer? (curious)
However, unless I can learn to handle the jump, maybe I shall have to resign myself to playing the easier way. There's only so much grief a person can take in one go life.
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DrStraw
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
The pincer works best when you control the upper right corner. If you do not control that corner, but instead control the lower left then it seems to me that omitting the pincer and play at 8 directly gives a better result.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Bill Spight
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
Jumps and counterpincers are not exactly rare. Are counterpincers in general a problem, or just these?
Oh, and remember, musicians make the best go players.
As Go Seigen said, go is harmony.
Oh, and remember, musicians make the best go players.
As Go Seigen said, go is harmony.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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, Black has (at least) two good follow-ups,
is different. Black can still jump to 
(c) direction counter pincer is not as good
, you should not be surprised if Black does jump.-
Kirby
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
Seems ok to me. You can do stuff with your pincer stone immediately if you want, but why not wait? There are other big areas on the board, and I don't think black can eliminate all of the aji in the area with one move.
Also seems ok to me.
You can compare to another joseki:
Next, black would normally play 'a', above.
But instead, he plays this??
Then it seems ok for you to play something around where you pincered.
--
Black can focus on attacking your pincer stone, but what profit would black get, even if he captured the single stone?
The board still has lots of empty areas to play.
Also seems ok to me.
You can compare to another joseki:
Next, black would normally play 'a', above.
But instead, he plays this??
Then it seems ok for you to play something around where you pincered.
--
Black can focus on attacking your pincer stone, but what profit would black get, even if he captured the single stone?
The board still has lots of empty areas to play.
be immersed
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Uberdude
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
If black counter pincers rather than slide I like to kick here to reduce his eyespace and help my corner. If black ignores and tries to kill your pincer you can just 2nd line hane and get a huge corner and sacrifice the pincer on a small scale for now.
Black should probably descend and then white can treat this as a good exchange to make black heavier and jump with the pincer. Note you can two space jump as you have some peeps (maybe a professional shouldn't play them but hold them in reserve, but for you I think it's ok to play them to keep the position simple, it stops things like a-b-c being annoying for example, particularly if the counter pincer was one closer).
Some players try to take sente from the kick by playing this hane and the crude atari, but those are bad moves that lose the 3-3 aji so you could run with the pincer of just take the 2nd line stone in sente for a big strong corner (now or later). The cap of 6 isn't so hard to escape from below with a/b, if he jumps at c you could just answer on the left, or help your pincer.
Black might answer the kick with this kosumi which aims at connecting at j18/k17 (better with the l17 counter pincer). You could disconnect him and fight, or you could just play some other marked ideas and let him thinly connect on the 2nd line in the opening as that's pretty crap too.
For variation 2 I presume you are missing a white stone at 3-3: In this case black's slide and then counter pincer means you have a chance to attack:
Btw, you can play that peep and 2nd line move instead of 3-3 if you want to emphasise the side rather than corner. Given black's top right corner that might not be best objectively, but most players your level, and even low dans, make a mistake in the following joseki (don't c16 push) so you can often get a nice result.
Black should probably descend and then white can treat this as a good exchange to make black heavier and jump with the pincer. Note you can two space jump as you have some peeps (maybe a professional shouldn't play them but hold them in reserve, but for you I think it's ok to play them to keep the position simple, it stops things like a-b-c being annoying for example, particularly if the counter pincer was one closer).
Some players try to take sente from the kick by playing this hane and the crude atari, but those are bad moves that lose the 3-3 aji so you could run with the pincer of just take the 2nd line stone in sente for a big strong corner (now or later). The cap of 6 isn't so hard to escape from below with a/b, if he jumps at c you could just answer on the left, or help your pincer.
Black might answer the kick with this kosumi which aims at connecting at j18/k17 (better with the l17 counter pincer). You could disconnect him and fight, or you could just play some other marked ideas and let him thinly connect on the 2nd line in the opening as that's pretty crap too.
For variation 2 I presume you are missing a white stone at 3-3: In this case black's slide and then counter pincer means you have a chance to attack:
Btw, you can play that peep and 2nd line move instead of 3-3 if you want to emphasise the side rather than corner. Given black's top right corner that might not be best objectively, but most players your level, and even low dans, make a mistake in the following joseki (don't c16 push) so you can often get a nice result.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
The answers so far seem rather misdirected to me. Not quibbling with the actual content, but they don't seem to address the underlying problem.
The pincer and the jump both appear in pro praxis are rare (Black 9 in diagram 1 does not appear, but I assume it could if the previous moves were more common).
Usually, when rare moves do appear in pro fusekis, the reason they are rare is something to do with settling the shapes too quickly or risking ceding the initiative to the opponent. It usually does not mean the move itself is bad. It is certainly not "punishable" in the usual way that amateurs mean.
The only ways to exploit such moves are strategic: to increase the scale or pace of play (which Tami seems already to be attuned to) and so to avoid getting sucked in to settled shapes, or to find a way to grasp the initiative.
Sometimes these two things go hand in hand, but either way they are not specially easy topics (although they can make up a significant portion of typical commentaries). The best way for a weaker player to learn such concepts is to play Black in handicap games. That is the real answer to Tami's dilemma.
In my experience, western players fuss too much about playing either even games or low handicap games. The reason often seems to be that they want to practise the latest joseki they've been studying, but no doubt there's sometimes a touch of hubris in there as well. I also find that when it is pointed out that oriental players play many more handicap games, the most typical response is NOT "oh, maybe I should, too" but something like "they have to cringe in their cultures" or "they have more opportunities to play stronger players."
The latter argument, about availability of stronger players, used to have a lot of force, but I'm not sure it applies very much now, although strong western players in general are still open to criticism over how little they play teaching games.
For whatever reasons, I have also found that western players often zoom up quite quickly to around 1-dan but then get stuck. I think the explanation there is often that they have in effect gone up too fast and omitted some of the basics (strategic rather than tactical) that you get from handicap games. Again the answer is handicap play.
The pincer and the jump both appear in pro praxis are rare (Black 9 in diagram 1 does not appear, but I assume it could if the previous moves were more common).
Usually, when rare moves do appear in pro fusekis, the reason they are rare is something to do with settling the shapes too quickly or risking ceding the initiative to the opponent. It usually does not mean the move itself is bad. It is certainly not "punishable" in the usual way that amateurs mean.
The only ways to exploit such moves are strategic: to increase the scale or pace of play (which Tami seems already to be attuned to) and so to avoid getting sucked in to settled shapes, or to find a way to grasp the initiative.
Sometimes these two things go hand in hand, but either way they are not specially easy topics (although they can make up a significant portion of typical commentaries). The best way for a weaker player to learn such concepts is to play Black in handicap games. That is the real answer to Tami's dilemma.
In my experience, western players fuss too much about playing either even games or low handicap games. The reason often seems to be that they want to practise the latest joseki they've been studying, but no doubt there's sometimes a touch of hubris in there as well. I also find that when it is pointed out that oriental players play many more handicap games, the most typical response is NOT "oh, maybe I should, too" but something like "they have to cringe in their cultures" or "they have more opportunities to play stronger players."
The latter argument, about availability of stronger players, used to have a lot of force, but I'm not sure it applies very much now, although strong western players in general are still open to criticism over how little they play teaching games.
For whatever reasons, I have also found that western players often zoom up quite quickly to around 1-dan but then get stuck. I think the explanation there is often that they have in effect gone up too fast and omitted some of the basics (strategic rather than tactical) that you get from handicap games. Again the answer is handicap play.
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Kirby
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
The OP stated what her problem is:
Not sure why answering the OP's question is misdirected...
At least my response was to this.My problem is I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with my White stone.
Not sure why answering the OP's question is misdirected...
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
My initial impression was that the two space high pincer feels a little funny to me. I like to pincer in this kind of situation, but the three space pincer. For one think Black is more likely to play the 3-3 invasion. For another it leads to calmer play on the top side.
Before responding I thought that I would look through the 10 volumes of Go Seigen's 21st Century Go set to see what he said. I am about halfway through. But since the discussion is moving on, I thought that I would convey my impressions so far.
Go Seigen does not like the two space high pincer. The reason is that he likes this result for Black.
Go Seigen says that
can also be at "a". Now that's a counter-pincer! 
Go Seigen likes the three space high pincer when Black has a
stone.
does allow Black to make a framework on the top side. But it has a weakness at "a", and Go Seigen likes the high approach at 
. White can be satisfied, in his view.
Probably more later, when I have gone through the set.
Before responding I thought that I would look through the 10 volumes of Go Seigen's 21st Century Go set to see what he said. I am about halfway through. But since the discussion is moving on, I thought that I would convey my impressions so far.
Go Seigen does not like the two space high pincer. The reason is that he likes this result for Black.
Go Seigen says that
can also be at "a". Now that's a counter-pincer! Go Seigen likes the three space high pincer when Black has a
stone. does allow Black to make a framework on the top side. But it has a weakness at "a", and Go Seigen likes the high approach at . White can be satisfied, in his view.Probably more later, when I have gone through the set.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Tami
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful responses.
I have learned a few things from this:
1) The pincer I like to play is more problematic than I realised.
2) Black's jump is a much more reasonable and powerful move than I realised.
3) Various specific methods of handling both the immediate counter-pincer and the slide, then counter-pincer lines.
4) That it's quite reasonable to play elsewhere and leave my pincer stone's fate to be settled later, according to developments.
5) That, when you don't know what to do, tenuki is often a very good idea. At least I can play a move elsewhere that I do understand, and then, as per point 4, go back to an area later when its meaning becomes clearer.
I agree with much of what Ed says about mastering specific basics. I have a plan for that, which I am carrying out. Namely, I have a bunch of basic handbooks that I'm going through with a board and stones; and I'm working my way through the Tasuki's elementary tsumego collection, and will repeat it until the rudiments of life and death have become much clearer to me. After all, deep reading is really only being able to put together a chain of simple readings.
I will ask my mentor to play some handicap games with me. It's not that I feel too proud to take handicap, but rather that it doesn't feel like a real game of go or perhaps that I just enjoy playing people around my own strength. However, I think John is correct about the need to play with handicap.
Perhaps the reluctance to play handicap is similar to a student singer who tires of singing Vaccai's exercises and who longs to sing difficult arias already. The thing is, it's a very wise idea to work on the exercises before you attempt a challenging aria, because the exercise will teach you how to put the building blocks together.
I would like to mention that I am usually very happy to give teaching games to weaker players who approach me online (my usual handle is "choirgirl"). Likewise, if any of the stronger players here sees me online, I would be glad to receive a teaching game.
I have learned a few things from this:
1) The pincer I like to play is more problematic than I realised.
2) Black's jump is a much more reasonable and powerful move than I realised.
3) Various specific methods of handling both the immediate counter-pincer and the slide, then counter-pincer lines.
4) That it's quite reasonable to play elsewhere and leave my pincer stone's fate to be settled later, according to developments.
5) That, when you don't know what to do, tenuki is often a very good idea. At least I can play a move elsewhere that I do understand, and then, as per point 4, go back to an area later when its meaning becomes clearer.
I agree with much of what Ed says about mastering specific basics. I have a plan for that, which I am carrying out. Namely, I have a bunch of basic handbooks that I'm going through with a board and stones; and I'm working my way through the Tasuki's elementary tsumego collection, and will repeat it until the rudiments of life and death have become much clearer to me. After all, deep reading is really only being able to put together a chain of simple readings.
I will ask my mentor to play some handicap games with me. It's not that I feel too proud to take handicap, but rather that it doesn't feel like a real game of go or perhaps that I just enjoy playing people around my own strength. However, I think John is correct about the need to play with handicap.
Perhaps the reluctance to play handicap is similar to a student singer who tires of singing Vaccai's exercises and who longs to sing difficult arias already. The thing is, it's a very wise idea to work on the exercises before you attempt a challenging aria, because the exercise will teach you how to put the building blocks together.
I would like to mention that I am usually very happy to give teaching games to weaker players who approach me online (my usual handle is "choirgirl"). Likewise, if any of the stronger players here sees me online, I would be glad to receive a teaching game.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
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oren
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
Honestly the zoom to 1d and get stuck is common in Japan from what I've seen. I have no personal experience with Korea and China, but I don't see this being an east/west thing.John Fairbairn wrote: For whatever reasons, I have also found that western players often zoom up quite quickly to around 1-dan but then get stuck. I think the explanation there is often that they have in effect gone up too fast and omitted some of the basics (strategic rather than tactical) that you get from handicap games. Again the answer is handicap play.
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tentano
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
There's a certain sense of having become "good enough" at 1d, which causes people to slack off on the effort needed to progress beyond that.
Once you're not in the lowly ranks of kyus, the pressure must drop enormously.
Once you're not in the lowly ranks of kyus, the pressure must drop enormously.
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xed_over
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Re: Please help me - frustrated with a common fuseki
I haven't reached 1d yet, but I have already reached this "good enough" attitude that has caused me to slack offtentano wrote:There's a certain sense of having become "good enough" at 1d, which causes people to slack off on the effort needed to progress beyond that.
(even though I would actually [like to] reach 1d or beyond, one day -- just can't fit in the time right now)
edit: add missing words in my sentence
Last edited by xed_over on Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.