Tricky Go terms to translate

[EdLee]

In these threads:

What is thickness ?
Go translation
Understanding Chinese politics through Go

There was some discussion on how to translate 勢 and other related terms.
(Seems difficult.)
Could someone help translate into English these terms in the context of Go ?

氣勢
勝負
勝負師

[daal]

It might be easier to translate if you showed the terms in a go-related sentence. For example, do you mean the first term in this sense?

中国围棋队以不可阻挡的气势，直落三局击败对手。

[skydyr]

The first trick to translation is to decide which language you are translating from, of course.

[daal]

The first trick to translation is to decide which language you are translating from, of course.

Looked like traditional Chinese to me - but hey, I don't know any Swahili

I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that anyone knowing traditional Chinese will also be able to read simplified characters. My main point though is that translation depends a lot on context. A single word in one language can have dozens if not hundreds of meanings in another one.

[skydyr]

The first trick to translation is to decide which language you are translating from, of course.

Looked like traditional Chinese to me - but hey, I don't know any Swahili

Yeah, but the posts Edlee referenced were primarily but not entirely Japanese, so I imagine there are nuances to each language that aren't in the other.

[daal]

氣勢 doesn't appear to be a Japanese word - but I don't know any Japanese either. In any case, context would help.

[skydyr]

氣勢 doesn't appear to be a Japanese word - but I don't know any Japanese either. In any case, context would help.

I have no real idea either.

[othkhvn]

Just my two cents on the below.

氣勢:
This looks like Chinese for force/power/momentum. Wiktionary and MDBG translate it this way. The first character 氣 means power/breath/life force (also a stone's liberty in Go) -- a pretty interesting insight into Chinese conceptual thinking and how it applies to martial arts, Go, etc. As you mentioned, 勢 is difficult to translate, but is used to describe power, strength, and influence in Go.

勝負/勝負師:
勝負 stands for victory/defeat (Asian languages like to pair contrasts, sort of like yin/yang, life/death). The first character 勝 stands for victory/win, the second character 負 means the reverse (in this context, a defeat). Sensei's Library has some of its implications in the context of Go under Shoubute 勝負手, or an all-or-nothing/victory-or-defeat move.
勝負師 would be a practitioner of this all-or-nothing/victory-or-defeat style (師 being the character for teacher, master, or practitioner). Some translate this as 'gambler'.

[EdLee]

Thanks for the input. From Go translation:

headings use a smallish subset of the whole grammar and often employ special disambiguation techniques to compensate for the lack of the context that body text has.

So, it's still all difficult.

[gowan]

In Japanese 勢 sei means energy. Seiryoku, 勢力, is usually translated as influence in the go context. The term sphere of influence, as used in military or diplomatic context is 勢力圏.

In Japanese 勝負 shoubu means a contest, match, game. In go commentaries it appears when something happens (fight, etc.) and it is still a game (勝負) rather than one side having a decisive advantage. 勝負手 refers to a move on which the game is staked. 勝負師 can mean a risk taker or a gambler.

These are all Japanese characters and meanings, I have no knowledge of Chinese.

[EdLee]

Hi gowan,

Thanks.

These are all originally and currently Chinese:
勢, 力, 氣, 勢力, 氣勢, 勝, 負, 勝負, 手, 師.

They, like (most? all?) other Kanji characters,
were adopted into the Japanese language, I believe.
After all, Kanji 漢字, literally means "Kan character",
a character 字 of Kan/Han/Chinese 漢 origin.

But I don't know the etymologies of 勝負手 or 勝負師.
Does anyone here know ?

[Kirby]

Hi gowan,

Thanks.

These are all originally and currently Chinese:
勢, 力, 氣, 勢力, 氣勢, 勝, 負, 勝負, 手, 師.

They, like (most? all?) other Kanji characters,
were adopted into the Japanese language, I believe.
After all, Kanji 漢字, literally means "Kan character",
a character 字 of Kan/Han/Chinese 漢 origin.

There are a lot of common meanings between words in Chinese and Japanese, but don't always assume the same meaning!

Case in point: 大丈夫　

[EdLee]

大丈夫

Indeed, I'm very curious about the etymology of daijoubu, too!

[daal]

But I don't know the etymologies of 勝負手 or 勝負師.
Does anyone here know ?

Here's what my genealogical dictionary has to say about the individual characters:

勝 sheng4: to excel, be better than. Etymology: Strength 力 with the phonetic 朕 zhen4.
負 fu4: 1.bear, shoulder 2. negative 3. owe. Etymology: person 人 working for shell money 貝.
師 shi1: 1. legion 2. teacher, master 3. specialist Etymology: legion dui1 that is surrounded 匝 za2 (altered)- circle, encompass

As to the etymology of the word 勝負師, no idea.

Seeing this and the other terms in context is necessary to translate them. Do you not have any examples of the terms in use? If not, what good are they anyway?

[EdLee]

Hi daal,

Your post 2 is a good example. How would you translate it ?