Back on track

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:It's going to take a while.
This.
Your question about o4 also falls into this category. There are, for all practical purposes, infinite variations, even just locally, after the 1-space jump to o4.

Any basic joseki dictionary may have a few pages (or more) about o4.
Think about the corner life-and-death variations after o4,
how many books (not pages) can they fill ? 1,000 at least ?

To try to gloss over this immense amount of knowledge into merely a word or two (say, influence vs. territory) is a huge trap to me.
Or even a sentence or two.
Or a paragraph or two.
Or a page or two.

Over the years, people around these levels would sometimes ask what's the difference between the 3rd line and the 4th line.
As an illustration, I would point out that the komoku plus the 4-4 constitute a few hundred pages in a basic joseki dictionary. And that the komoku is usually a little longer (about 100 pages longer) than the 4-4.

It's great you're studying the basics.

I think studying, reviews, actual combat experience, and tsumego, etc. are very helpful. They help answer your questions like o4. :)
Amelia wrote:The way I see it, the only way to develop a good understanding of a position is to experiment with it in many, many different contexts.
Yes.
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Re: Back on track

Post by Amelia »

Ok.
@skydyr: I think I'm beginning to understand the general idea. Kinda. There is a lot of subtlety involved in the details of carrying all this out that I'm not grasping yet, a lot of missing pieces. But I'm storing that new piece of knowledge away for future experiments.

EdLee wrote:I think studying, reviews, actual combat experience, and tsumego, etc. are very helpful. They help answer your questions like o4.
I get it. No shortcuts. My teacher agrees with you :mrgreen:

Thanks to both of you for helping me with this. It was worth losing this game :)
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:No shortcuts.
Bingo! :clap:
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Re: Back on track

Post by Amelia »

:b97: this is truly bizarre. Can you find a better local move ? :-)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . . X 3 O X . . . . |
$$ X X O . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This seems best.
(I considered briefly this move in game but dismissed it without reading properly )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 2 X . . . . |
$$ . . X . O X . . . . |
$$ X X O . . . X . . . |
$$ . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This connection works too but it leaves less points for black and more sente threats for white. (For some reason, I didn't consider this at all during the game).

:black: 103 another very strange move. Can you find a better local move ?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . X . O X . 2 b a |
$$ X X O . . . X . 1 O |
$$ . O O . O . . X . 3 |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White a and b don't work, white can't live inside.
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . . X 3 O X . . . . |
$$ X X O . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yes -- the turn :b1: is very natural.
Is :w2: correct ?
Is :b3: correct ?
Is :b5: correct ?
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . X . O X . 2 b a |
$$ X X O . . . X . 1 O |
$$ . O O . O . . X . 3 |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White a and b don't work, white can't live inside.
Correct.
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Re: Back on track

Post by schawipp »

I'm a bit late but...

tentano wrote:Some comments, hope they're helpful.
[...]
:b33: Q6 seems far worse for white, to me. There's also a cut at P9 whichnbeither side seems to have cared about.
[...]


It seems w can even cut at Q7. It may look strange at the first glance, however:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 W has 3 liberties against 2
$$.............O..|
$$................|
$$..............7.|
$$............XX6.|
$$..........XXOO4.|
$$..........OO135.|
$$...........X2...|
$$...........XOOO.|
$$............XXXO|
$$...........X..O.|
$$................|
$$................|
$$-----------------[/go]


Anyway, even if w blocks at :b35: at least the two w stones on O7/P7 will be immediately cut off.
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Re:

Post by Amelia »

EdLee wrote:
Amelia wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . . X 3 O X . . . . |
$$ X X O . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yes -- the turn :b1: is very natural.
Is :w2: correct ?
Is :b3: correct ?
Is :b5: correct ?


Well, let's take this in reverse order. And I'm expending the diagram a bit because those other surrounding stones are going to be relevant to the discussion. (The black stone at L12 also disappeared because I just realised I played it at move 99, so it wasn't there yet when I played at 97 :oops: Need to pay more attention.).

If :b5: is omitted it looks like white stays dead anyway.
White potential follow-ups I considered:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . b a 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . c X 3 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O . 4 . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I couldn't find a sequence allowing white to escape. So unless I missed something, :b5: is unnecessary and therefore a bad move.
(It does look like there's some aji left with fun endgame consequences, though, depending on how things develop on the other side of that black group. But too many possibilities for me to evaluate).

Now, :b3:. Black can't tenuki here, otherwise the connection is broken and nasty things happen. But there might be better moves to maintain the connection. I had a look at a and b here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O b a . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


In both cases, if white resists (which I'm not assuming is a good idea, by the way :-p) we end up with this:

Now one move I would be looking carefully at if I were white is a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a O X X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X O O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O X X . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


And then... what? White a? White b? Here too, it seems that as long as black blocks the escape route at c and doesn't forget counting the liberties along the way, it'll be fine. But the day where I can actually read and feel confident about that before playing :b1: in the first diagram, I'll feel quite happy about myself...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . c b a 1 O X X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . 2 X O O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O X X . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Anyway, :b3: as in the first diagram doesn't seem to be the best move, although it certainly feels safer.

Option 1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 5 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O 4 3 . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Option 2:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 5 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O 3 4 . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O 6 O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I'd tend to prefer Option 2 as it's sente.


As for :w2:, it is obviously bad, since it fails. This looks like the way to fix white's shape in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 2 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O b a . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There... I hope I didn't overlook anything too obvious :mrgreen:
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Re: Back on track

Post by EdLee »

Hi Amelia,

You're right that :b5: was unnecessary.

The rest is the kind of analysis you need to do,
in your reviews, and during your games. Good. :)
Compare to your first diagram in post 109. :)
No shortcuts. It's all work. :mrgreen:
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Re: Back on track

Post by Amelia »

EdLee wrote:Compare to your first diagram in post 109. :)
No shortcuts. It's all work. :mrgreen:

Point made :study:
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Re: Back on track

Post by Uberdude »

Amelia wrote:
As for :w2:, it is obviously bad, since it fails. This looks like the way to fix white's shape in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 1 X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 2 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O b a . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


There... I hope I didn't overlook anything too obvious :mrgreen:


So if the above is white's best continuation locally (actually tenuki probably best until endgame and save 2 for a ko threat later), how do you think that compares to black 1 here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 1 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


(This is a good example of the principle of using your opponent's response to your first idea for your move to find alternative moves for you.)
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Amelia
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Re: Back on track

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 1 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O 2 b . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Wow, I would never have looked at this move... But it really works (once you know it's there ^^). If white a, black b. After white 2, black a. White can't cut.

This is a good example of the principle of using your opponent's response to your first idea for your move to find alternative moves for you
I'll keep that in mind, thanks!
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Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ . O . X . . X 1 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X X O 2 . . X . . . |
$$ . O . X . O O . O . . X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . X . . . |
$$ . O . . O . . . . O . . O . |
$$ O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hi Amelia,

Can you find a move other than :w2: , so that :black: (a) is not atari ?
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Amelia
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Re: Back on track

Post by Amelia »

I haven't played any go in a week. My bag was stolen last week at the central station.
On top of money, credit cards, IDs, and so on, I lost my laptop with all the data on it, the hand written game records from the tournament, and the two go books I was studying at the moment.
I've been very pissed at the thieves, at myself, and at the world in general this last week. I also have a lot of lost work to redo because some of the data on the laptop wasn't backed up.

I'll try to have my life get back to normal next week...
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Re: Back on track

Post by Boidhre »

That's horrible Amelia, I'm very sorry to hear that. :(
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