Was ready to start playing go again and this happened...

[Bonobo]

http://senseis.xmp.net/?SuddenDeath

But I don’t understand how this combines with Byo-Yomi.

[EdLee]

Bonobo, I think some people refer to the last byōyomi as sudden death.
It's not really a "real" sudden death because as long as you play
the required number of moves within that period,
you get another period, forever.
But it feels different from the previous non-final byōyomi periods
in that you cannot let this one run out, or you lose on time.
So some people refer to it as sudden death.

It also has to do with the actual duration:
for short byōyomis, like 30 secs - 1 minute, it feels more urgent
than much longer ones, like 20 moves per 30 minutes (Canadian).
So partly, this "sudden death" label is psychological.

[often]

He plays another move in the secured territory and I realize it isn't so secure anymore but that now we have a situation because I tenukied. I end up losing a lot of stones and leave the game without finishing calling him bad names. After cooling down I resigned afterward.

If you aren't aware of that, that's on you. It's your job to win, and if you can't secure a win, it's not your opponent's fault for trying something that works, it's your fault that you can't properly defend your territory.

[xed_over]

I teach a lot of beginners, and they'll ask me questions about playing in what otherwise looks like my territory.

I tell them all the time, it never hurts to try.
I don't think you can live (or kill anything) there, but I've been wrong before.
If you don't succeed, then the final score is relatively unchanged (for every prisoner I gain, I also lose a point playing inside my own territory). But if you do succeed, then its a really huge gain (and bad on me that I thought my area was secure).

I welcome, and encourage my students to try.
Can't learn, if they don't try.

[DJLLAP]

On a slightly tangential note, I once played a game when I was pretty new to go and improving rapidly. I think I was around 7 kyu and played a game against a player a couple ranks above me, so of course, I took handicap stones. I ended up dominating the game, and my opponent got really upset, saying that I wasn't really a 7k, therefore I was cheating. He demanded that we start a new game and that I resign to make up for his loss. After about 10 minutes of arguing about it, I convinced him to play me in an even game instead. Maybe he was flustered by the whole thing, but I still won quite handily. I don't remember if he resigned properly or if he just quit. I thought the entire encounter was kind of bizarre and amusing. I mean, no one likes to be sandbagged, but if I didn't play and win games at that rank, then it would never improve.

I guess the moral of the story is that some people are just unreasonable. You just have to deal with them with as much good grace and good humor as possible.

[emerus]

What happened to you can be frustrating. I suggest working on your basics and reading. You need to know if your area has bad aji or not and how to deal with your opponents attacks. Or just understand that some people that play ranked matches have different values and try to win. With good etiquette or no.

See it as a challenge to overcome or avoid ranked.

[Boidhre]

I teach a lot of beginners, and they'll ask me questions about playing in what otherwise looks like my territory.

I tell them all the time, it never hurts to try.
I don't think you can live (or kill anything) there, but I've been wrong before.
If you don't succeed, then the final score is relatively unchanged (for every prisoner I gain, I also lose a point playing inside my own territory). But if you do succeed, then its a really huge gain (and bad on me that I thought my area was secure).

I welcome, and encourage my students to try.
Can't learn, if they don't try.

I do a similar thing with weaker DDKs at our club. I tell them if you can't see why it's alive make me prove it's alive. Ditto with connections or whether a cut works or not, if it's not obvious then test it. I often leave unsettled groups hang around for a while to encourage them to experiment. It is important though, some shapes are alive if and only if you know why the placement/invasion/whatever doesn't work. You can easily amass a collection of living shapes that you make life with if you're not careful.

This caught me this week:

$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O , O . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O , O . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

I don't remember anyone ever invading at into that shape in one of my games. My first instinct was a, I misread something, decided it didn't work and went with instead. is a totally unreasonable move, but it worked and erased the lead I'd built up in the fuseki.

[Bill Spight]

This caught me this week:

$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O , O . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O , O . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

I don't remember anyone ever invading at into that shape in one of my games. My first instinct was a, I misread something, decided it didn't work and went with instead. is a totally unreasonable move, but it worked and erased the lead I'd built up in the fuseki.

You make a good point about being willing to try things. But it seems to me that you made at least two reading errors. Part of reading is the assessment of results, and you did not assess the results after as unsatisfactory and unreasonable.

[Splatted]

I'm really surprised by all the posts saying it's the op's fault for making the mistake and he should work on his reading. It goes without saying that everyone still has things to learn but who cares? That's completely irrelevant to issue of time scummers. Even if there's a skill level where this doesn't work, it's a poor motivator for getting people there, and telling those that just want to have fun that they need to study harder to avoid bad experiences seems unlikely to do anything other than thin the herd.

[Inkwolf]

I'm not sure what 'time scummers' are.

The original poster had territory he thought was his. (As far as I'm aware, territory still only belongs to you if you can keep it.) Someone else didn't think that territory was secure and played inside it. The op decided to ignore it, lost stones in a group that wasn't as secure as he thought, called the opponent names and escaped, then came here to rant some more.

Yes, it's a game we play for fun. We all make mistakes in Go, and to me, someone playing (possibly) unreasonable moves at the end of a game does far less to kill the fun than a guy who has a tantrum when he loses.

Post the kifu, if you want somebody to agree that the opponent's moves were unreasonable and ridiculous. We only really know that they worked.

Think about this, though: When you say "I lost horribly because my evil opponent played dirty tricks I couldn't see through" instead of "I lost horribly because I made one really stupid mistake," aren't you giving your opponent all the credit for the win?

[Bonobo]

I'm really surprised by all the posts saying it's the op's fault for making the mistake and he should work on his reading. [..]

Well, I for one, being a weak player, can’t really talk about the OP’s way to play, but I do question the attitude of somebody who …

• states explicitly that they hate people (instead of, for example, disliking the way they behave), and who …
• blames and even insults the opponent when they are losing.

[Splatted]

Well it seems that my pre-nap reading of this thread was quite different from my post-nap reading.

Edit: Which is to say I take back what I said.
Edit2: Though I do think the op may have had good reason for being annoyed his reaction was clearly out of line.

I'm not sure what 'time scummers' are.

A scummer is someone who in some way abuses a game system. It doesn't necessarily have such a negative connotation as you might imagine as in single player games it can be a good way to adjust difficulty to match your own desired challenge level.

[Amelia]

Edit2: Though I do think the op may have had good reason for being annoyed his reaction was clearly out of line.

It was a reaction of anger. Those are usually bad. Not to say that anger excuses everything, but most of us lowly humans aren't at our best when we're extremely pissed.

However, the routine "he's in byoyomi, let's just keep adding stones until he overlooks an atari"* is a jerk routine. It's something people plan and do as a habit. Not something they do by mistake or in the heat of the moment. It's chronical bad attitude and I find it very distasteful.

*this isn't the same as not knowing if a move works and trying it to find out, and obviously we can't tell how big the benefit of doubt should be in this case. But the attitude the OP talks about does exist. I've even been encouraged to play like that by a fellow club member in the past

[Boidhre]

Edit2: Though I do think the op may have had good reason for being annoyed his reaction was clearly out of line.

It was a reaction of anger. Those are usually bad. Not to say that anger excuses everything, but most of us lowly humans aren't at our best when we're extremely pissed.

However, the routine "he's in byoyomi, let's just keep adding stones until he overlooks an atari"* is a jerk routine. It's something people plan and do as a habit. Not something they do by mistake or in the heat of the moment. It's chronical bad attitude and I find it very distasteful.

*this isn't the same as not knowing if a move works and trying it to find out, and obviously we can't tell how big the benefit of doubt should be in this case. But the attitude the OP talks about does exist. I've even been encouraged to play like that by a fellow club member in the past

How do you feel about insisting on filling in all the dame to see if your opponent overlooks an atari or shortage of liberties when your opponent is in byo-yomi? How do you feel about me starting a complicated life and death problem in the corner against you if you're in your last 10s byo-yomi? What about cutting and starting a very complicated fight? All these things are seriously impacted by you being in byo-yomi, same as someone filling in your territory. All that'll change as you get stronger in rank is people will start using less crude approaches to try and encourage you to make an error, filling in someone's territory usually won't catch a 2k but starting some complicated life and death problem in the corner might if they're under time pressure. Time is a resource, if you've gained an advantage on the board by using more time earlier then surely it's ok for me to use my extra time now to my advantage?

Sure they're using factors outside of the board to affect the game but you agreed to a timed game so...

[Splatted]

Edit2: Though I do think the op may have had good reason for being annoyed his reaction was clearly out of line.

It was a reaction of anger. Those are usually bad. Not to say that anger excuses everything, but most of us lowly humans aren't at our best when we're extremely pissed.

However, the routine "he's in byoyomi, let's just keep adding stones until he overlooks an atari"* is a jerk routine. It's something people plan and do as a habit. Not something they do by mistake or in the heat of the moment. It's chronical bad attitude and I find it very distasteful.

*this isn't the same as not knowing if a move works and trying it to find out, and obviously we can't tell how big the benefit of doubt should be in this case. But the attitude the OP talks about does exist. I've even been encouraged to play like that by a fellow club member in the past

I 100% agree. When I said I retracted my earlier post I meant that I'm no longer sure it applies to this specific situation. I still stand by it as a generalisation.

How do you feel about insisting on filling in all the dame to see if your opponent overlooks an atari or shortage of liberties when your opponent is in byo-yomi? How do you feel about me starting a complicated life and death problem in the corner against you if you're in your last 10s byo-yomi? What about cutting and starting a very complicated fight? All these things are seriously impacted by you being in byo-yomi, same as someone filling in your territory. All that'll change as you get stronger in rank is people will start using less crude approaches to try and encourage you to make an error, filling in someone's territory usually won't catch a 2k but starting some complicated life and death problem in the corner might if they're under time pressure. Time is a resource, if you've gained an advantage on the board by using more time earlier then surely it's ok for me to use my extra time now to my advantage?

Sure they're using factors outside of the board to affect the game but you agreed to a timed game so...

Sure there are times when the line is unclear but for some people that's because they've gone way way too far past it. I've had games where my opponent is the first to reach byo yomi in a game they have clearly lost and yet they continue to play not just in to endgame but after that as well. Most examples are much less extreme but if the attitude remains the same then it's not okay and the specifics of what's on the board are only significant to the extent that they demonstrate what the players are thinking. I do think it's okay to make game decisions based on relative time left in the bank.