Was ready to start playing go again and this happened...

[Bill Spight]

Byoyomi doth make fools of us all.

[Boidhre]

Sure there are times when the line is unclear but for some people that's because they've gone way way too far past it. I've had games where my opponent is the first to reach byo yomi in a game they have clearly lost and yet they continue to play not just in to endgame but after that as well. Most examples are much less extreme but if the attitude remains the same then it's not okay and the specifics of what's on the board are only significant to the extent that they demonstrate what the players are thinking. I do think it's okay to make game decisions based on relative time left in the bank.

Sure, I consider it rude and I don't advocate playing moves you know don't work in your opponent's territory to anyone learning from me. It's usually not against the rules though and if someone cares enough about winning to try something like this they're more than entitled to do it. What they're not entitled to is for you to ever give them another game. Put them on ignore/block/whatever, resign if you don't feel like continuing and move on to the next game and forget about them.

[Subotai]

It is fun to see whenever I make a thread how it changes and turns in direction.

I used this forum as a tool to vent out some anger, as writing out your problems help.

I still find the conduct of the player I faced very unbecoming. I like to believe that go is something very special when we put our full attention into a game. A duel of the minds. When someone displays such behavior behind a screen it is rude and when for some reason it causes me to mess up it is very frustrating.

Time is a resource that should be used strategically. I personally often feel restricted by time but know that it is a part of the game.

Its just a game... I really dislike this phrase. Even though I am not very good at it I have spent hundreds of hours studying and playing go. As I mentioned before I see go as a duel of the minds. With all of its history and spirit go might even be something sacred. Should you tell a painter that it is just painting? An author that it is just a book? If you play go haphazardly and don't really study or play, fine then it is just a game. But when you use go to better yourself it transcends that.

[HermanHiddema]

I am reminded of Hanlon's razor:

“Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.”

Sure, it is possible that your opponent was maliciously trying to frustrate you and win on time with what he knew were pointless moves. But given that he is only 11 kyu, he may also have simply considered the situation beyond his reading ability. And as others have pointed out, it is quite common to teach beginners that it never hurts to try (I do so too).

We have a bunch of DDK level players at our club, and I often see them doing this kind of thing. They'll play small endgame, then suddenly try an invasion. Not out of malice, but simply out of inexperience and an inability to accurately read it out. And sometimes it works, even though it shouldn't, because their opponent makes a mistake (because hey, they're DDK too!).

Now the advantage at our club is that it is all over the board, where there is no anonymity barrier, where your opponent is a real person sitting right across the table from you, quite obviously equally engrossed in the game. Where it is quite obvious no malice is involved. Nobody at our club would even think about trying to annoy their opponent into resigning, or trying to make them run out of time. And also, nobody would even think about flipping out and calling their opponents names.

So please, next time, give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. You may have felt like he ruined your day, but have you considered that your reaction may have come totally out of the blue for him? That he was as much engrossed in the "duel of minds" as you were? That he got an unexpected success in a difficult position, was quite happy to have managed that, and then suddenly had some random stranger on the internet flip out on him and ruin his day?

[i3ullseye]

How timely. I recently posted about the other side of this. What if you don't know if you should play into an area? Or, what if you think trying might yield some gains of the opponent makes a mistake. I was worried that people would respond exactly as the OP did. The consensus however is ..... go for it. Nothing is settled territory until it is truly settled territory. And ignored territory is rarely ever settled.

/shrug

After that previous post and discussion, I am of the mind that even obvious bad moves are still worthy moves. Not time stalling mind you, that is a bit different. But clearly bad moves to see if the opponent might play elsewhere and let your bad move be turned good? Just feels like a different form of Ko threat proposition to me.

[xed_over]

After that previous post and discussion, I am of the mind that even obvious bad moves are still worthy moves. Not time stalling mind you, that is a bit different.

Indeed, time stalling is bad -- which seems to be what is actually at issue here (though it too could have been unintentional)

[mlund]

However, the routine "he's in byoyomi, let's just keep adding stones until he overlooks an atari"* is a jerk routine. It's something people plan and do as a habit.

I agree with that core sentiment.

That said, this is why I prefer the timing system where you get X minutes for Y moves instead, whatever they call that system that IGS defaults to. Remember, friends don't let friends play 10 second byo.

At any rate, learning to play calmly in your own territory under pressure is a part of Go, though. They'll be games where your opponent isn't just fishing for a kill. They'll be times where you get caught up in a desperate Ko fight that decides the game and now everything is a threat. Other times there is legit aji and you have to play correctly to prevent a seki or ko from developing.

I suppose one of the other things that helps is being confident in your counting. If you're distinctly ahead and your opponent is desperately trying to time-scum you why tenuki? How does that punish him if he's already losing? Answer him stone-for-stone in settling your own group as directly as possible. It costs you nothing. Instead of him ratcheting up your anxiety you are repeatedly beating him, over and over, until all his pathetic wiggling and worming ends in utter humiliation. It can be a great time to work on your diabolically laughter technique too.

Marty Lund

[oren]

I'm working my rank up on IGS and very often I find it useful to just start removing opponent's groups when I have a big enough lead. It removes aji and reduces the chances that an opponent will want to continue.

Making two eyes and reducing aji in your position is also worthwhile if you have that big enough lead.

If you don't have that big a lead. It's fair for an opponent to try to find a chance.

[EdLee]

That said, this is why I prefer the timing system where you get X minutes for Y moves instead, whatever they call that system that IGS defaults to.

It's Canadian, which is also available on KGS.

A popular setting on IGS is 10 minutes for 25 moves,
which averages to less than 30 secs per move,
which is very fast (for some people).

Both the byōyomi and Canadian are just special instances of a more general setting.

S + ( Y X ) * N + M

S Starting or initial time
X byōyomi duration
Y number of moves that must be played in each X
N number of byōyomi periods
M misc. adjustments (Fischer, etc.)

A popular KGS "byōyomi" setting:
S 30 min. X 30 secs. Y 1. N 3.

A popular IGS Canadian setting:
S 1 min. X 10 min. Y 25. N 1.

[mimano]

Is it not rather N=1 for IGS?

[EdLee]

Is it not rather N=1 for IGS?

Hi mimano, you're correct!

IGS also supports the other byōyomi setting with periods N greater than one.

[Tonkleton]

You might think me a big jerk for this, but I rather like being on both ends of this situation. Subotai mentioned a "duel of the minds" and I think that sums up why I enjoy it.

When I say "Pass", what I really meant is "Go ahead... make my day" or "Feeling lucky, punk?" (think Clint Eastwood).

If they take my challenge, then I smile gleefully as I try to crush their stones against my strength. If they pass to me while I'm losing and there is a hope of breaking into an area that I can't read out, I will make my best effort to win.

Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail, but no matter what I always try to learn from our struggles. Don't get me wrong: the losses are frustrating, especially when so close to victory. But I find that the source of my frustration is toward myself for letting it happen. I want my opponent to give me everything he or she can. In my mind, that's part of the duel.

Just my two cents, not that anyone is asking.

[Splatted]

Sure there are times when the line is unclear but for some people that's because they've gone way way too far past it. I've had games where my opponent is the first to reach byo yomi in a game they have clearly lost and yet they continue to play not just in to endgame but after that as well. Most examples are much less extreme but if the attitude remains the same then it's not okay and the specifics of what's on the board are only significant to the extent that they demonstrate what the players are thinking. I do think it's okay to make game decisions based on relative time left in the bank.

Sure, I consider it rude and I don't advocate playing moves you know don't work in your opponent's territory to anyone learning from me. It's usually not against the rules though and if someone cares enough about winning to try something like this they're more than entitled to do it. What they're not entitled to is for you to ever give them another game. Put them on ignore/block/whatever, resign if you don't feel like continuing and move on to the next game and forget about them.

I think this is a good attitude to have when on the recieving end of it, and is actually how I try to deal with it myself, but that's somewhat separate from speaking out about it when it's being discussed. There's no need to pretend there isn't someone being pretty unpleasant here. Unlike verbal abuse there's no way to just ignore it free of repercussions and yet everyone seems more than happy to condemn that.

You might think me a big jerk for this, but I rather like being on both ends of this situation. Subotai mentioned a "duel of the minds" and I think that sums up why I enjoy it.

When I say "Pass", what I really meant is "Go ahead... make my day" or "Feeling lucky, punk?" (think Clint Eastwood).

If they take my challenge, then I smile gleefully as I try to crush their stones against my strength. If they pass to me while I'm losing and there is a hope of breaking into an area that I can't read out, I will make my best effort to win.

Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fail, but no matter what I always try to learn from our struggles. Don't get me wrong: the losses are frustrating, especially when so close to victory. But I find that the source of my frustration is toward myself for letting it happen. I want my opponent to give me everything he or she can. In my mind, that's part of the duel.

Just my two cents, not that anyone is asking.

That's my attitude to the endgame as well, but I'm talking about people who purposefully draw out a game to run down your clock and then keep attacking in the hope that you'll make a mistake now you're bored and have reduced thinking time.

[Boidhre]

I think this is a good attitude to have when on the recieving end of it, and is actually how I try to deal with it myself, but that's somewhat separate from speaking out about it when it's being discussed. There's no need to pretend there isn't someone being pretty unpleasant here. Unlike verbal abuse there's no way to just ignore it free of repercussions and yet everyone seems more than happy to condemn that.

Verbal abuse is a lot less acceptable to me than an opponent who insists on playing on with nonsense invasions. Verbal abuse at my club over a game would get you told never to come back. Also the repercussion is a lost game on an internet server. Not exactly something important.

[kex]

I don't understand these rants. For some, this seems to be a big problem, since these rant threads appear frequently.

If your opponent plays by the rules and you lose your concentration, then the game, there is only one person to blame. No need to vent.