Kirby's Study Journal

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Bill Spight »

I thought that you were going to suggest this play. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: BTW, if you are going to approach the bottom right corner, . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Daidaigeima
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The daidaigeima is an often overlooked option. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:I thought that you were going to suggest this play. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.

On the other hand, maybe if white turns at 'a', black's wall isn't that efficient.

It's difficult for me to judge this position.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

By the way, I am a bit behind on memorizing pro games this week. I still have two more to do, and it's already Saturday. I guess I will have to memorize two of them today.
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Uberdude
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Uberdude »

Kirby wrote:Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.


That's because white 2 here is the 'many groups chaotic fighting style'. It might be worth considering going for cleaner trades by pushing a lot which helps black on one side, but if you get to munch the other that's worth it (though I'm not saying it works here, white's corner has some weakness like a-b-c which means you probably can't capture the wall, you need to read).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation. I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.


That's because white 2 here is the 'many groups chaotic fighting style'. It might be worth considering going for cleaner trades by pushing a lot which helps black on one side, but if you get to munch the other that's worth it (though I'm not saying it works here, white's corner has some weakness like a-b-c which means you probably can't capture the wall, you need to read).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b a . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you can't kill it, do you think that playing those surrounding moves is worth giving black the territory on the left? It's nice to have influence, but it's not a perfect wall, either, since there is aji.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:Interesting idea, Bill. I never thought of this variation.


The amateur disease. To crib from the Book of Common Prayer,

The Book of Common Players wrote:We have read those lines that we ought not to have read,
And we have left unread those lines that we ought to have read.

:mrgreen:

I imagine one possible variation would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It might be a good strategy. From my current perspective, the biggest fear I'd have with this variation is for the white cutting stones to become a weak group. Black could then feasibly make territory on the left and bottom more easily then.


Oh, ye of little faith! As the Good Book says:

I will fear no evil,
For I am giving three stones.


Kirby wrote:It's difficult for me to judge this position.


How easy will it be for your weaker opponent? ;) Remember, your job as White is to make it difficult for Black. And I don't mean hamete after hamete.

You may have doubts but
A cut is just a cut,
An eye is just an eye.


OK, let's take a look at this position again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Two weak groups
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


True, the :wc: stones are vulnerable. They have only four liberties, not enough, as Wilcox pointed out, for tactical security. But what about the :bc: stones? They also have only four liberties.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Combining attack and defense
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: bolsters the :wc: stones while threatening the :bc: stones. How bad can it be? Especially when White is the stronger player? ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fight fiercely
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White might think about extending to "a" instead of :w3:, but that would give Black 5 liberties. Fear no evil!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w5: is honte. :b6: protects his group. The exchange on the left side has been good for White. Now that the :wc: stones are secure, :w7: returns to the attack against the bottom left Black group. :)

Edited to correct the quote from the Book of Common Players.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

I like the hane of :w3: the best out of this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I don't think I would have considered it. Maybe another example from your common prayer thing.

When black is pressed down on the left, it certainly looks like white hasn't given up that much in exchange for strengthening his group.

I like the idea.
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by ez4u »

And after Black cuts?...
Dave Sigaty
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Bill Spight »

ez4u wrote:And after Black cuts?...


I left that as an exercise for Kirby. :)

He could ask himself, What would Dave do? Or Uberdude? Or Sakata?

Hint:

I would reduce Black's liberties to three.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

What I thought after reading Bill's post was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white atari'd underneath, then it's second line crawling:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Didn't seem that bad. So if black atari the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Then play 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I guess there's this left:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Make a fist before striking
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 8 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


which seems like quite a reasonable fight for white to me.

That's why I thought :w3: was such a cool move.

---

Now that ez4u has questioned it, though, maybe I need to think more carefully... It can't be that easy. I'll post again if I find a new discovery.
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by ez4u »

Kirby wrote:What I thought after reading Bill's post was this:
...
So if black atari the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Then play 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

This is the variation that I thought worked for Black. Next grip the stone on the bottom left and Black is undamaged IMHO. White has about twenty points in the corner but Black' positions are solid and meanwhile Black has played twice in a row in the upper left.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Bill Spight »

ez4u wrote:
Kirby wrote:What I thought after reading Bill's post was this:
...
So if black atari the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

This is the variation that I thought worked for Black. Next grip the stone on the bottom left and Black is undamaged IMHO. White has about twenty points in the corner but Black' positions are solid and meanwhile Black has played twice in a row in the upper left.


I agree that at this point if White captures the three Black stones and then Black secures his group, the exchange is approximately even. But capturing the Black stones is a large yose. Better to switch back to attacking the Black group in the bottom left. Depending upon how the fighting goes, White has the option of capturing the Black stones if need be.

I gave what I thought was the most likely sequence of play, but upon reconsideration I think that you are right, this is better for Black. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O W . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by ez4u »

Bill Spight wrote:
ez4u wrote:blah blah blah...


I agree that at this point if White captures the three Black stones and then Black secures his group, the exchange is approximately even. But capturing the Black stones is a large yose. Better to switch back to attacking the Black group in the bottom left. Depending upon how the fighting goes, White has the option of capturing the Black stones if need be.

I gave what I thought was the most likely sequence of play, but upon reconsideration I think that you are right, this is better for Black. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O W . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White ends up a little uncomfortable here. If White simply pushes once and then goes back and captures with 4, the White center stones are floating with bad shape - Black can attach at 'b' to exploit White's shortage of liberties. Plus the descent at 'b' or the hane next to it become sente. But it's a three stone game so maybe White will pull it off. :rambo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X W . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W W a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O 1 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Bill Spight »

ez4u wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
ez4u wrote:blah blah blah...


I agree that at this point if White captures the three Black stones and then Black secures his group, the exchange is approximately even. But capturing the Black stones is a large yose. Better to switch back to attacking the Black group in the bottom left. Depending upon how the fighting goes, White has the option of capturing the Black stones if need be.

I gave what I thought was the most likely sequence of play, but upon reconsideration I think that you are right, this is better for Black. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O W . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White ends up a little uncomfortable here. If White simply pushes once and then goes back and captures with 4, the White center stones are floating with bad shape - Black can attach at 'b' to exploit White's shortage of liberties. Plus the descent at 'b' or the hane next to it become sente. But it's a three stone game so maybe White will pull it off. :rambo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X W . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W W a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O 1 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X W . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W W . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O 1 3 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b4: loses a tempo in the fight, allowing :w5:. IMO, White has gained a bit on par. If he had extended to D-10 instead of playing the hane at C-10, he would have done about as well, but Black could have played on automatic. With the hane Black had to make the cut, then offer a sacrifice, and then, when the sacrifice was refused, judge whether and when to capture the two White stones. The hane made the game more difficult for Black than the nobi, which was my point. :)
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Post by Kirby »

Note to self: Don't give ez4u 3 stones!
be immersed
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