Kirby's Study Journal

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:01 am

Magicwand wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:We usually agree about these things, but not here. The keima is more solid, but I think that the high ogeima is appropriate, especially considering that White is behind.

after careful reconsideration, i cannot agree with you because of group on the bottom. Once black attacks the white group on the bottom... spiderweb influence will not hold. For that reason i like solid moves.

remember that i said it is better than previous, it doesnt mean that it is the optimal.
My feeling is that white has to play bottom to secure it's two eyes.

Oh, we agree that the bottom side is urgent.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:39 am

Kirby wrote:I was thinking about this a little bit more. Maybe it's not impossible to learn more about the "unknown unknowns" that I have. For example, there some areas of go that I simply don't study much. Endgame is a good example. In fact, probably the only areas that I really study are:

* Go problems (tsumego and tesuji)
* Joseki (sometimes)
* Opening patterns (once in awhile)

If I never study anything else, it probably accounts for some of the "unknown unknowns" that I have. I can try to figure out if I made a reading mistake, for example, but what about all of the areas that I don't study?

I have been wondering about unknown unknowns and how to study on one's own, as well. There are series, like Sakata's Killer of Go series, that are fairly comprehensive. Interestingly, in that series Sakata groups tsumego and yose together, but that is traditional (see the Guanzi Pu). Recently I ran across something by Suzuki, Kitani's teacher, about studying go, in which he emphasizes three areas which are similar to your list. They are 1) life and death, 2) making territory, and 3) shape and tesuji. These areas are fairly broad. For instance, under life and death Suzuki includes ladders and nets. Making territory includes the opening and the endgame. I expect it includes making territory in the middle game, as well.

In a more advanced series Sakata has a whole book on sacrifice. I don't know how Suzuki classifies that.

Here is a link to Suzuki's book on go instruction: http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1117853

He also wrote a multi-volume set on studying go by yourself. The Japanese National Diet online Library has two of those volumes. Here is a link: http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1102567

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:42 pm

Thanks, Bill. Very cool that the books are so accessible. Maybe that kind of study plan could be effective.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:16 pm

Well, it is Friday night. I play go on Fridays - at least I usually do. But I didn't play a game today. I feel down about losing on Tuesday, and I feel like it might carry on to today.

Instead, I've been feeling a bit introspective tonight... Why does it still bother me today that I lost on Tuesday? Well, maybe I could naively say that it's because I played a poor quality game. My play had several mistakes, and it's embarrassing. But is that really why? If I think a little further back, I posted a game where I played very poorly and basically lost against a 2d on KGS, but he resigned at the end for some odd reason. Did I feel depressed about that game? Maybe briefly, but I also felt happy to "win", and went on to play games after that.

If I am completely honest with myself, the difference between these cases is that I am sad that I passed the 2d mark, then went back down. And now it feels like I will continue to be stuck at KGS 1d - just as always.

---
Motivation
So the sad truth is that my motivation is based on rank. I have "studied" recently, but the main motivation has been to get to 2d on KGS. And my motivation has not been strong. The last time I remember studying hard at go was also due to rank, and it was when I jumped from about 4k to 1d on KGS.

In other words, rank has always been a motivator for me. And after hitting "1d", I suspect that there is some loss of motivation in achieving higher dan levels, since I have crossed the arbitrary kyu/dan line. Perhaps this explains why I have been stuck at my current level for so long. Where is my motivation?

I could set another goal based on rank to get more motivated. But can I convince myself that being 2d on KGS instead of 1d is worthy of the work and dedication needed to purposefully study?

I suspect that, if I am to acquire a higher level in go - if I am to become "unstuck", I need to find a solution to this motivation problem. But will I find such a reason, or such a motivation? :scratch:

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:58 am

Kirby wrote:If I am completely honest with myself, the difference between these cases is that I am sad that I passed the 2d mark, then went back down. And now it feels like I will continue to be stuck at KGS 1d - just as always.

---
Motivation
So the sad truth is that my motivation is based on rank.
...

I suspect that, if I am to acquire a higher level in go - if I am to become "unstuck", I need to find a solution to this motivation problem. But will I find such a reason, or such a motivation?

You need to quit following your rank, and let your rank follow your progress.

consider this... imagine if you only played much stronger players, and you lost every game -- expectedly, right? Then your rank would go down, as its based solely on win/loss records, but I dare say your skill level would go up, as you are likely learning and improving in every game. But for your rising skill level to be reflected in your rank, you have to again play against lower level players again and win.

The point is, stop chasing rank, and just let it track your history. Its a record of where you've been, not who you are or where you're going. Your rank doesn't define you.

Don't look at the rank of your opponents -- you shouldn't "expect" to win or lose based on if their rank when its better or worse than yours. Anyone can play several stones above their current rank in a given game -- it just means making fewer mistakes this time, right? Besides, maybe their ranks have been drifting and aren't accurate either

Otherwise you defeat yourself psychologically before you even start

As a fan of the game, the sport, I love watching the games in the Open sections, where you'll often have players ranked 3 to 4 stones weaker than the top players, all playing even games against each other. And I've seen many, many "unexpected upsets", because they're playing their own best game, not their opponent's rank. (Or maybe their opponent slacked off a bit and made some mistakes because they thought it was going to be an easy game because of the rank difference)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:10 pm

xed_over wrote:You need to quit following your rank, and let your rank follow your progress.

consider this... imagine if you only played much stronger players, and you lost every game -- expectedly, right? Then your rank would go down, as its based solely on win/loss records, but I dare say your skill level would go up, as you are likely learning and improving in every game. But for your rising skill level to be reflected in your rank, you have to again play against lower level players again and win.

The point is, stop chasing rank, and just let it track your history. Its a record of where you've been, not who you are or where you're going. Your rank doesn't define you.

Don't look at the rank of your opponents -- you shouldn't "expect" to win or lose based on if their rank when its better or worse than yours. Anyone can play several stones above their current rank in a given game -- it just means making fewer mistakes this time, right? Besides, maybe their ranks have been drifting and aren't accurate either

Otherwise you defeat yourself psychologically before you even start

As a fan of the game, the sport, I love watching the games in the Open sections, where you'll often have players ranked 3 to 4 stones weaker than the top players, all playing even games against each other. And I've seen many, many "unexpected upsets", because they're playing their own best game, not their opponent's rank. (Or maybe their opponent slacked off a bit and made some mistakes because they thought it was going to be an easy game because of the rank difference)

Your point is well taken, and commonly expressed on this forum: don't pay attention to rank - enjoy go for what it is.
In my opinion, however, it's idealistic. Of course rank is just a number, and of course it's not always accurate. And of course, finding your happiness from rank isn't a good way to find lasting happiness (unless you're 9d, perhaps).

But what I'm getting at is a matter of motivation. Rank, albeit sometimes inaccurate, provides a numerical measurement of ability. If the goal is to improve in ability, this metric can be used as a form of motivation.

Perhaps it's possible to be motivated in other ways, but no other metric that I'm aware of provides as clear of an indicator of progress.

So, while it may seem shallow, I think that for now, my motivation will continue to be based on rank.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:14 pm

Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living". For some reason, this quote came to mind the other day. He didn't say that the unexamined life was worse than the examined life. He said that the unexamined life was not worth living.

I thought about this for awhile, and also about the concerns I have had about motivation. In the process, I formulated my own expression: The unexamined game is not worth playing.

These days, I have wondered about my motivation in go. What motivates me? Why am I interested in this game. Why should I spend time studying?

I realized that sometimes, I have been going through the motions. I crack open the tsumego book, whip through some problems. I play out a pro game, without much energy. And during some games, I get to a tricky spot, and don't want to think about it much - "meh, that's kind of confusing what will happen if I play there. I won't bother thinking too far ahead. This feels like an 'ok' move".

This is not motivating. In fact, if I play go this way, and study this way, the games I play are not worth playing, and the problems I study are not worth studying.

But if I examine moves - think carefully about them. And put effort into them... The more I do that - the more it *is* worth playing. And the more it *is* worth studying.

Truly examined games are truly worth playing. And truly examined problems are worth studying. Carelessness is not worth the "effort".

This is the conclusion I've come to. And this is what motivates me.

---

So, I'm back! I whipped up the game offers on KGS, and started off against another 1d. We played out about 20 moves, and he accidentally died, so he resigned. I won't review the game here, because there is not much to review.

Then, I played against KGS 2d. I lost this game. But I feel happy. I still feel motivated. There are two reasons:
1. I tried harder than I have been recently. I made a very bad reading mistake about the status of his life in the corner, which could have cost me the game. But despite this big mistake, for many moves in the game, I tried hard. Maybe I just tried too hard to kill him.

2. I think I had a good chance of winning, if I had simply cut his group and kept half of it. He would have lived with part of his group, but killing the center part would be enough to win, I think.

Anyway, here is my review.

I will post diagrams later, but for now, I have to spend some time with my wife.

---

It feels good to be motivated once more.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sat May 02, 2015 1:33 pm

Just a quick comment about the opening.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Probe $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

As far as I remember :b1:

is considered a probe (though my terminology here could be off) and there is actually a huge difference between 'a' and 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese-Kobayashi variant 1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 7 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White plays low, Black takes the chinese framework because he can answer the pincer with the sequence through :b9:

(exact move order might be off but the shoulder-hit at :b9:

is essential!).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Chinese-Kobayashi variant 2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . a 3 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White plays high, Black "usually" (181/284 games, 'a' 61, 'b' 32, GoGoD Summer 2012) takes the Kobayashi Fuseki because a pincer is much more severe with :w2:

(no shoulder-hit to make shape).

Allowing White F4 is much too painful.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat May 02, 2015 6:17 pm

Allowing F4 was a variation Inseong covered, and the response was to play as in the game - so I think F4 must be possible, at least when white responds low. Not 100% sure if it's still ok when white plays high, as in the game.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun May 03, 2015 1:21 am

I think very few professionals would allow f4, and if they did would likely play k4 at l4 to stay away from thickness.

Like sodesune said, the high answer means the fight is much harder so tenuki to chinese is ill advised. But his continuation with the low was wrong, black should counter pincer before running. You can search pro games for common continuations or check Kin Sung Rae's New Openings book vol 3.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:44 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Delayed Chinese $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that go is too wide to say that Black cannot tenuki after :w6:

. After

the tachi at "a" is unappetizing, as it is heavy, inviting a pincer. OTOH, if White plays at "a", the exchange, :b5:

- Wa, is bad for Black. What to do?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 A Kikashi before Dying $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . O B 5 a . 3 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The kikashi exchange, :b9:

-

, followed by :b11:

(or maybe the star point), presents a dilemma to White. If White allows Black to play at 12, then :b11:

is the ideal extension from the two stones, but if White plays :w12:

,

makes a base for :b11:

, and threatens to make an eye at "b", as well; and then Black threatens to invade at "c". :b9:

has prevented White from making the descent to 9 in this variation. If instead of :w12:

, White invades at "a", Black can sacrifice :bc:

and

. (I picked up the hane, :b9:

, from Go Seigen.)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun May 03, 2015 8:44 pm

Uberdude wrote:I think very few professionals would allow f4, and if they did would likely play k4 at l4 to stay away from thickness.

I don't know about the books you mention, but this variation was one that In-seong specifically covered:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

He said he felt black was fast, and covering the board, so it works alright. Another example he's used is something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the sequence above, he said he cannot prove that black is better. White has solid points in the corner, for example, and black has no definite points.

But he said black is better in his opinion, because he is faster, playing the whole board.

I think he means the same thing with this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That being said, if I were white, I guess I do like it a little better if white is high, as here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

---

But at least with the diagram given, it's something In-seong specifically covered. Maybe you don't agree, since white is so thick in the bottom left, and since you didn't see it in pro games.

But at least I felt OK about the opening in my game (in my opinion, things fell apart a bit later, as I noted in the variation).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun May 03, 2015 8:51 pm

Uberdude wrote:...check Kin Sung Rae's New Openings book vol 3.

By the way, do you think these type of books have been helpful to you in your game?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon May 04, 2015 1:03 pm

Kirby wrote:
Uberdude wrote:I think very few professionals would allow f4, and if they did would likely play k4 at l4 to stay away from thickness.

I don't know about the books you mention, but this variation was one that In-seong specifically covered:

$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

He said he felt black was fast, and covering the board, so it works alright. Another example he's used is something like this:
<snip>

But at least with the diagram given, it's something In-seong specifically covered. Maybe you don't agree, since white is so thick in the bottom left, and since you didn't see it in pro games.

But at least I felt OK about the opening in my game (in my opinion, things fell apart a bit later, as I noted in the variation).

That variation with k4 and the lower answer bottom left has been played once professionally (in ps.waltheri.net database) by Cao Dayuan 9p in 2000. He lost. L4 has been played 14 times with 46 % win (including Cao Dayuan again in 1999, 2000 and 2001, and other esteemed players like Ma Xiaochun several times). I think there is a big difference between Inseong saying some move is okay for a bunch of kyu or low dan players in a lesson, and actually him engaging his full 8d power and analysing a position deeply and studying professional games. Did any students question k4 and suggest L4 might actually be better? If this happened and he thought about it and said "No, k4 is better than L4" then that would be significant, but my guess is it wasn't mentioned. I could even believe Inseong might play k4 against me with not much thought and for a brief moment I would have a tiny advantage against him, but if he played a stronger opponent maybe he would give it more thought.

Kirby wrote:
Uberdude wrote:...check Kin Sung Rae's New Openings book vol 3.

By the way, do you think these type of books have been helpful to you in your game?

Yes, even though it's in Korean which I can't read! (but you can I think?) Vols 1/2 are translated to English. This approach then Chinese (I call it the fighting Chinese) has been my black fuseki of choice the last few years.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon May 04, 2015 1:49 pm

From my perspective, there are two ways of convincing myself that a particular line of play is right or wrong:

1. Appeal to authority - Personally, I am more convinced by a high level player that can explain his/her reasoning to me than by a game database. Even if a game database has thousands of games, there are many more positions in the game of go, so the room for error in drawing statistical conclusions is usually high, especially for less common positions.
The fact that you found an example of the "bad" play, even if he lost, is evidence to me that it's playable. In general, I'll take advice from a high level teacher over a game database, until the sample size in game databases is much higher.

2. Thinking for myself - Aside from advice for anybody, my own feeling from thinking for myself is:
* It is locally painful to tenuki after white's kick. White is very thick, and it makes invasion around the bottom left more difficult. White has a lot of potential on the left.
* If black tenukis and plays around the board, black has made a good position on the top and right sides. Black needs to benefit from the framework enough to compensate the profit white has gotten in the bottom left.

Uberdude wrote:I think there is a big difference between Inseong saying some move is okay for a bunch of kyu or low dan players in a lesson, and actually him engaging his full 8d power and analysing a position deeply and studying professional games.

I'm not sure if that's the case or not. I have no reason to believe it is, except for what you've told me. But he is my teacher, so until I am strong enough to have reason to doubt, I will trust his advice. For me personally, a database analysis isn't enough to provide such reason. If anything, it'd have to come from category #2, above.

For what it's worth, In-seong also provided some variations where black responded to the kick :-)

Uberdude wrote:Yes, even though it's in Korean which I can't read! (but you can I think?) Vols 1/2 are translated to English. This approach then Chinese (I call it the fighting Chinese) has been my black fuseki of choice the last few years.

Thanks for the tip. Maybe I should consider reading these books. I'll see if I can find out where to buy them.

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