I'm still working to understand positional judgment on choosing the correct pincer. I played this long pincer at black 21 because the position looked similar to one I'd seen in a pro game and I've played it before with good results but I'm wondering if it was actually a good exchange for me. Any other comments on the game are appreciated.
How do you like this pincer?
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Joelnelsonb
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How do you like this pincer?
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Uberdude
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it doesn't matter what pincer you play when the rest of your moves are worse than any pincer. What mistakes in basic local shapes can you find in the first 30 moves?
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Joelnelsonb
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Haha, I do appreciate the honesty but a little more description might help me along a little faster. As for your question, I just played the game so I obviously feel mostly good about it. However, I'm very much in an experimental phase right now so I don't hardly expect anything I do to be "right".
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
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Tonkleton
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Hey, it's Saint Ravitt. I see your games on OGS all the time. 
Now, I'm sure there will come along a much stronger player who will be able to give more specific guidance. As far as advice is concerned, I agree with what Uberdude is saying, but I'm going to try to word what he's saying differently.
I don't think it really help folks at our level (DDK) to know whether a particular strategic approach was a good one. What I mean is that a high-level player might look at the position and see a move from the opponent that could really punish it. While they could tell you "yes, great move!" or "no, that doesn't quite work out," you can't really utilize that in your future games. The chances are you won't see this exact position for a while. Even if you did come across one that is close to the same, a one-stone difference in the position could make the move optimal or suboptimal.
Better than that, I would suggest focusing on local improvements around where your shape got you into trouble. Anywhere you suffered locally or lost stones without a gain is a great opportunity to see what can be done better and to try out variations. Also, the folks around here love getting into those details, and in fact there's a forum dedicated to just that purpose.
All that said, I thought the pincer looked fine, using the criteria that I wouldn't mind being in black's position at that point in time.
Now, I'm sure there will come along a much stronger player who will be able to give more specific guidance. As far as advice is concerned, I agree with what Uberdude is saying, but I'm going to try to word what he's saying differently.
I don't think it really help folks at our level (DDK) to know whether a particular strategic approach was a good one. What I mean is that a high-level player might look at the position and see a move from the opponent that could really punish it. While they could tell you "yes, great move!" or "no, that doesn't quite work out," you can't really utilize that in your future games. The chances are you won't see this exact position for a while. Even if you did come across one that is close to the same, a one-stone difference in the position could make the move optimal or suboptimal.
Better than that, I would suggest focusing on local improvements around where your shape got you into trouble. Anywhere you suffered locally or lost stones without a gain is a great opportunity to see what can be done better and to try out variations. Also, the folks around here love getting into those details, and in fact there's a forum dedicated to just that purpose.
All that said, I thought the pincer looked fine, using the criteria that I wouldn't mind being in black's position at that point in time.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Overall, the pincer seems a bit vague. I'd play a tighter pincer, one that works better with your K6 and K16 stones.
Below is a critique of the pre-pincer moves. Now that they are covered, Uberdude can comment on the pincer.
Below is a critique of the pre-pincer moves. Now that they are covered, Uberdude can comment on the pincer.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Joelnelsonb
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Tonkleton wrote:Hey, it's Saint Ravitt. I see your games on OGS all the time.
Now, I'm sure there will come along a much stronger player who will be able to give more specific guidance. As far as advice is concerned, I agree with what Uberdude is saying, but I'm going to try to word what he's saying differently.
I don't think it really help folks at our level (DDK) to know whether a particular strategic approach was a good one. What I mean is that a high-level player might look at the position and see a move from the opponent that could really punish it. While they could tell you "yes, great move!" or "no, that doesn't quite work out," you can't really utilize that in your future games. The chances are you won't see this exact position for a while. Even if you did come across one that is close to the same, a one-stone difference in the position could make the move optimal or suboptimal.
Better than that, I would suggest focusing on local improvements around where your shape got you into trouble. Anywhere you suffered locally or lost stones without a gain is a great opportunity to see what can be done better and to try out variations. Also, the folks around here love getting into those details, and in fact there's a forum dedicated to just that purpose.
All that said, I thought the pincer looked fine, using the criteria that I wouldn't mind being in black's position at that point in time.
Thanks for the word! I give people Chess counseling all the time and when a beginning player asks me "what do you think of this move?", obviously I look at the entire position and think "wow, I'm not sure where to begin with this one :/" None the less, that doesn't stop me from being able to at least assess the students strategic idea and tell them whether they're even on the right track (regardless of the fact that they're level of play is far inferior to my own). If you can't meet a student where they are then you have no business giving instruction to anyone. Regardless of your own expertise, you're simply worthless as any sort of mentor (no, I'm not suggesting that "Uberdude" did any such thing to me; just a tip from the not so wise).
Another example of this: I'm a Spanish tutor. When a student asks me "did I pronounce this word correctly?" The fact that the entire sentence they've just attempted to say made no coherent sense doesn't stop me from answering their question.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
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Boidhre
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Joelnelsonb wrote:Thanks for the word! I give people Chess counseling all the time and when a beginning player asks me "what do you think of this move?", obviously I look at the entire position and think "wow, I'm not sure where to begin with this one :/" None the less, that doesn't stop me from being able to at least assess the students strategic idea and tell them whether they're even on the right track (regardless of the fact that they're level of play is far inferior to my own). If you can't meet a student where they are then you have no business giving instruction to anyone. Regardless of your own expertise, you're simply worthless as any sort of mentor (no, I'm not suggesting that "Uberdude" did any such thing to me; just a tip from the not so wise).
Another example of this: I'm a Spanish tutor. When a student asks me "did I pronounce this word correctly?" The fact that the entire sentence they've just attempted to say made no coherent sense doesn't stop me from answering their question.
Ok, strategic idea assessment: pincering was fine, the fighting that followed was what caused you problems. Picking a different pincer won't fix this.
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Kirby
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
be immersed
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Boidhre
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.
Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.
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Akura
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Boidhre wrote:Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.
Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.
And, as always in such situations, both opinions are valid. Both of you are correct. A teachers job in such a situation is finding the threshold between
(1) "Pincering is utterly wrong. You should play bla bla" and
(2) "Locally, pincer A is better than pincer B. But in this global situation you can play bla bla instead of the pincer, too."
Maybe we can do both in most situations/questions. Maybe one pincer is better than the other but pincering in itself is wrong or not optimal. In most amateur games this should be true. Why not explain both points, if possible/reasonable?
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Boidhre
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Akura wrote:Boidhre wrote:Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.
Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.
And, as always in such situations, both opinions are valid. Both of you are correct. A teachers job in such a situation is finding the threshold between
(1) "Pincering is utterly wrong. You should play bla bla" and
(2) "Locally, pincer A is better than pincer B. But in this global situation you can play bla bla instead of the pincer, too."
Maybe we can do both in most situations/questions. Maybe one pincer is better than the other but pincering in itself is wrong or not optimal. In most amateur games this should be true. Why not explain both points, if possible/reasonable?
I'd argue it's not the right question but the wrong question points in an interesting direction, one thing that is raised here is that the OP didn't see the mistakes in the corner as if they realised they got a raw deal in the corner after the pincer the question wouldn't be about the pincer being right or wrong but what should have happened after that pincer instead of the game result. So maybe the question isn't "which pincer?" but "what should I expect after a pincer?" and maybe joel might realise something broader about go by considering the importance of asking those questions in the right order.
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Akura
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Boidhre wrote:I'd argue it's not the right question but the wrong question points in an interesting direction, one thing that is raised here is that the OP didn't see the mistakes in the corner as if they realised they got a raw deal in the corner after the pincer the question wouldn't be about the pincer being right or wrong but what should have happened after that pincer instead of the game result. So maybe the question isn't "which pincer?" but "what should I expect after a pincer?" and maybe joel might realise something broader about go by considering the importance of asking those questions in the right order.
And still we can say: "You chose the wrong pincer and you screwed up afterwards. Let me show you both..."
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Bki
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
I think it's worth it to consider the difference between the various pincers. I'm, after all, of the mind that we should strive to understand the purpose of the moves we play. (Note : I don't claim that what follow will be correct. Stronger players are welcome to correct my flawed understanding)
Part of it is simply joseki knowledge : For example, if you pincer and your opponent jump into the 3-3, there will be more or less aji in the approach stone afterwards, which you might want to kill off. What might be joseki with a specific pincer might not be with another simply because the pincer now occupy an intersection that the opponent would have played otherwise.
First, what is the purpose of a pincer? This is quite simple : to prevent the enemy from making a base with his approach stone, maybe chasing him into the centre while making territory on one or both side. At other time, the pincer also double as an extension from the opposite corner, maybe the most common example of double purposes moves.
Their are two differences in pincers. How close they are, and whether they are high or low. To be honest, I'm not sure what exactly is the difference between the latter two apart from the general "3rd line : territory, 4th line : influence" rule.
Close pincers are more severe, but at the same time, because they're close to the enemy, they are also more prone to be counterattacked. Leaning on the enemy's corner stone then playing a counter pincer is a common tactic. There may also be the possibility to attach to the pincer to get shape (whether it is a good idea or not would depend on the situation I guess).
Wide pincer put less pressure on the opponent, but at the same time they will be safer, while still preventing the creation of an ideal base for the approach stone.
Then what about the 2-space pincers? They are somewhere in between, I guess? To be honest, I only use them when the pincer double as an extension, but a 3-space pincer would not be severe enough, and a 1-space pincer would be too far from the position I want to expand from.
In this case... I think a closer pincer would have been preferable, because it would make jumping into the corner more attractive for white (well, at least I'm personally least likely to double approach with a one space pincer) to jump into the corner, which you want with your sanrensei.
Part of it is simply joseki knowledge : For example, if you pincer and your opponent jump into the 3-3, there will be more or less aji in the approach stone afterwards, which you might want to kill off. What might be joseki with a specific pincer might not be with another simply because the pincer now occupy an intersection that the opponent would have played otherwise.
First, what is the purpose of a pincer? This is quite simple : to prevent the enemy from making a base with his approach stone, maybe chasing him into the centre while making territory on one or both side. At other time, the pincer also double as an extension from the opposite corner, maybe the most common example of double purposes moves.
Their are two differences in pincers. How close they are, and whether they are high or low. To be honest, I'm not sure what exactly is the difference between the latter two apart from the general "3rd line : territory, 4th line : influence" rule.
Close pincers are more severe, but at the same time, because they're close to the enemy, they are also more prone to be counterattacked. Leaning on the enemy's corner stone then playing a counter pincer is a common tactic. There may also be the possibility to attach to the pincer to get shape (whether it is a good idea or not would depend on the situation I guess).
Wide pincer put less pressure on the opponent, but at the same time they will be safer, while still preventing the creation of an ideal base for the approach stone.
Then what about the 2-space pincers? They are somewhere in between, I guess? To be honest, I only use them when the pincer double as an extension, but a 3-space pincer would not be severe enough, and a 1-space pincer would be too far from the position I want to expand from.
In this case... I think a closer pincer would have been preferable, because it would make jumping into the corner more attractive for white (well, at least I'm personally least likely to double approach with a one space pincer) to jump into the corner, which you want with your sanrensei.
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Kirby
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Boidhre wrote:Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.
Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.
Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.
His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.
Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.
Let me put it this way: there's "being a teacher in order to teach the student what he 'needs' to know" , and there's "being a teacher to encourage the student's learning".
Of course, knowing whether the pincer is good or bad may have little to do with improvement, in terms of knowledge.
But if you extinguish the student's interest by telling him the question he's interested in is not useful, where have you really gotten?
The OP did NOT ask for general advise on how to improve, and I fail to see why it should be forced upon him.
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skydyr
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Re: How do you like this pincer?
Kirby wrote:The OP did NOT ask for general advise on how to improve, and I fail to see why it should be forced upon him.
I think there's an unspoken assumption that if you're asking questions about moves in your games here, you're interested in them because you'd like to improve. I'd make an exception for cases like "Is this position seki?" and the like, but that's not what was asked here. I agree that it's polite to also answer the direct question, but sometimes the best answer is that the question doesn't matter.