#246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

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skydyr
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by skydyr »

moyoaji wrote:I have decided that black has absolutely no ko threats I would respond to. For this reason, I play this ko threat, because I don't need 2 ko threats and this one puts black in worse local shape. The only threat I saw that was moderately viable was this peep:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O 3 1 . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O C C O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 2 C O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


But my follow-up at :w4: is sort of harsh, and I can easily run my wall back to my other group. So I'm not concerned.

L11 is my next move. No matter what move black plays, I will take his 3 stones.


While I suspect moyoaji is thinking of a particular passage by Kageyama about just connecting the ko and allowing your opponent two moves in a row, I don't think that's right in this case: if white has two local threats, and black doesn't have any, white could always respond to the biggest black threat knowing that there's nothing to worry about because of the local threat, and black gets less in compensation than otherwise. White had better be sure he's responding to the biggest threat, however.
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Well ... the last sequence was probably a bit embarrassing for me :oops: - however the show must go on! ;-)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


On a second glance the last sequence was less disaster than expected. Even if I lose the ko, my upper right side is now relatively safe (last but not least thanks to P12...) and is still somewhere between 18-20 points.

I could try to play a ko thread e.g. at lower left corner - however if I play two times there, white would play two times in the center (finish off the ko and then maybe around J15) and then the whole center is likely to become white. This looks bigger than the lower left corner.

With my move I get a Ponnuki (provided that white finishes the ko) and it seems there is a realistic chance to get my center stones somehow connected and alive even without the connection to the right. In this case the game would be still quite ok for me.
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Don't worry, I have a feeling that some of my moves with the P8 group were equally as questionable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w3: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This was another ko threat I had considered my opponent would make, but didn't think they would. The reason is that taking the stones is pretty much my only move. If I were to save my other stone, black can simply take my stone and the ko is pointless. So it is not actually a ko threat - it is just forcing me to capture his stones.

Black will get a ponnuki, however, so we'll see where this goes.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I finally got my ponnuki. In my Post #132 (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=185624#p185624) I made a score estimation regarding the border territories which was more or less balanced and did not have changed much since. While white got around 6 points with the capture someone told me that a ponnuki counts as 30 points. Therefore I must be leading by about 24 points now :mrgreen:
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So if my opponent plays this correctly, I don't believe I can kill his group. I must not let it live in sente, though. I want to come back to my group on the bottom. By my count, if I make that bottom group live, I'm ahead by about 34 points. If it all dies and I don't reduce black at all, I'm only up by about 2 points. So at the bare minimum I must reduce black to pull ahead. But if I can make it live, I've got this game won.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

I was on a hike today (springtime is finally going to happen here...) and will need a bit more time for my next move.

I was expecting a move like J15 in order to make it more difficult for my center group to get alive. Now I can play J15 myself - and if he continues to defend his territory I can play e.g. H12 and at least live easily but in gote.

However - if I just count the seemingly secured territory so far, the situation is as follows:

white:
upper and upper left side: ~ 50 points
lower left corner: 15 points
center sequence with ko fight: 7 points

with komi that's about 78.5 points

black:
- lower right side (with presumably dead p5 stones): 50 points
- upper right side: about 18-20 points
- left side (invasion group): around 10 points

Therefore black would still have a tiny lead - especially there's still potential to get a few extra points in the center (a big endgame move would be e.g. on C8 which is also reverse-sente).

Since moyoaji also should be able to count and probably doesn't want to lose by 3.5 points or so, I feel a bit suspicious about the position.

- There may be still some aji with the "dead" p5 stones left.
- Even more worrying - I'm not completely sure if there is no trick sequence with my upper right side, especially after my genius sequence ending up in establishing a strong white group just sitting nearby.

Therefore I have some homework to do before my next move.

- Is it even possible to live in the center in sente? Maybe there is some sequence involving a sacrifice which forces white to defend the territory more heavily and let me live thereby. This would be a really great result.
- I further have to check carefully the security of my upper right side.
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My plan is to simply play J15 and H15. If white defends J16 and H16, my group should be alive even after tenuki (if w plays a I have the capture c; if w plays b I will atari on d and play e afterwards). Therefore, I can play elsewhere e.g. c8.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm111 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O O O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . a X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . e c d b X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White can tenuki H15 but I will get some endgame at top side for compensation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm111 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . a 4 . b O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . d O 1 O O 3 O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X . 5 . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . c . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After :b15: w has to play (a) to prevent some disaster (G17). With (b) I have some sente endgame, where the corner gets cut off and w will need to capture S17 in gote. Instead :b11: I can also imagine that there's some aji for reduction at (d) in combination with the peep (c). I'm not yet sure about my favorite play and will wait how w responds.
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Busy week, but I did not forget this game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . 9 O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I debated for a while about this move. Should I do something harsh against the black group, or let it live? In the end, I decided on this calm reply.

I am only ahead slightly, but I will be ahead by a lot after I play on the bottom if my calculations are correct. I believe I have found a way to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . a . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This move, I believe, threatens to make miai of 'a' and 'b' by either letting me connect under or live along the side. So, if black makes eye shape with H15 on the next move, I will play :w1: on the bottom and see what he has to say about my group being alive.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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schawipp
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Sorry, my week was also quite busy so far. I will try to reply more regularly again.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . 9 O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 8 . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 2 X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 6 . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 4 O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . 5 . 3 X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Unfortunately, H15 seems not sente - at least I can not find a big sequence after white ignored H15. OTOH, C8 or D8 is a very big reverse-sente (because w would threaten to cut off my invasion group and at the same time disconnects E9).

Now, that E9 is more or less connected it seems realistic to either make live with the J13 group or connect it downwards, even after the tenuki.
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

It's alright. No need to rush.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black's move here was unexpected. I suppose he was afraid I might be able to use the aji of C8 to make some sort of double threat in fighting over his group. That might be possible, but I think his move was premature. With one more move, I think his group could be alive locally.

Before I try to kill his group, however, I'd like to know if I even need to. If my group lives here on the bottom, I think this game is in the bag for me. I don't see where black would make up these points.

Let's find out!
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Uberdude
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by Uberdude »

If white dies here (dunno if it can live), this would have been a better move. Also could have been a good move for black instead of c8 if white does live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Just because it's been a problem in the past when someone else starts a new page, I'm going to post again to say I've responded.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a c 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . b d e f . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


The most reasonable looking blocking moves are a and b.

If I play a, white can play d and I would have to block on b. Afterwards, white can make eyeshape on f.

Therefore I played b. If white still plays d I have the move c. After white f I can atari on first line and spoil the eyeshape.

Apart from that rather trivial stuff, the whole situation is very difficult to assess. It seems possible that either white can live at the bottom or kill my tenukied top center group. In both cases it would be a good place to resign. I made too many mistakes before and therefore, there's too much "road construction" going on simultaneously. But let's see what is going to happen for the next few moves, first.
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moyoaji
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, I said I had 'a' 'b' miai. My opponent played one. Therefore, I play the other. Next, I can either kick at L2 or bend around into the corner with Q2.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Post by schawipp »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm110 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . 2 . . . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I was very tempted to play the more risky move O4. Then white can P4 O5 N3 O6 and finally jump to R2. This is, what I can see so far in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm119 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . a . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O X O 9 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . X O X 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X 6 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . . . . O 1 O 4 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 0 . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After black connects Q1 (needed) playing (a) is not sufficient:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm130 Captured: :w4: :b5:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . O O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X X X X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X . X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O O . O . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O X X X O O O 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X X O X X . 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O X O X X 7 . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . X O X O X 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O . O X O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . X . . . . O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I would end up with a dead corner shape.

With my move I protect my corner and there is still big aji. In case white blocks P4 I think I can at least get a ko. Otherwise I still would have O4. Unfortunately, this tsumego is too complicated for me to elaborate in full scale... :scratch:
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