#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:17 am

Absolutely fine to put it on hold by me

If you remember, PM me when you move just so I don't forget about it!

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri May 01, 2015 8:16 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uh, trying to settle, I guess. Until refutation this move looks interesting to me : )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Maybe? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . d . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . X b . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 1 . . a O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Haven't deciced whether playing 'a' or 'b' next. First instinct was 'b' but 'a' robs me of my base and easily settles White's stones. 'a' on the other hand feels cramped and after White 'b' I feel an ugly fight within White's sphere of influence will ensue...

'c' and 'd' are also somewhat contenders.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Mon May 18, 2015 3:20 pm

Welcome back

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Well, I'd forgotten all about this game! I must admit, looking at it now, I don't like it much, although mostly I still feel my top left result was rather poor. However, one must work with what one has, even if it doesn't feel like very much, and I think I need a move the offers some consistency with the modest level of thickness I've built up above.

I had considered stabilising the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . 7 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is huge for both of us, but it sort of damages my last move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 0 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 8 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . 7 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now this sort of semi-moyo-connecty buildy stuff has all sorts of holes in it. It'll be painful if Black settles that easily on the side, but I feel I ought to commit to what I've started. I expect black to slide and then block at the bottom. Something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X b . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . a . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . 0 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . d . . c . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Then I need to decide whether to play a move like "a" directly, or jump up with "b" and see if anything sticks in my head regarding a future strategy. I may also descend at "c" if it makes a big enough threat of "d", but some of the reading there is distinctly tricksy. One thing I am sure of is that Black sort of has to settle his group down there, so I'm hoping to build a natural wall from these exchanges. A hane instead of "c" is also a good forcing exchange for the bottom if I am going to tenuki, but then I pretty much wreck much hope of pushing that group around at any point

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue May 19, 2015 12:06 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:03 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The only move really. It's points (and quite a few of them), and helps keep Black from settling too easily with points himself. Time will tell whether he takes the move I predicted at J3. If he doesn't, I absolutely have to have a long hard think about the best move down there, as he's unsettled enough that it's a super big place to play. If he does, I have to decide how much to be willing to let go of. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm44 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . 9 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X 8 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 O 0 . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This kind of thing feels horribly big on the bottom, but maybe there's enough central potential to warrant it?

Some thought will be needed, which I'll endeavour to post when we get there.

EDIT: :w52:

above really does look like it smells of something despicable. Playing it at :b53:

must be better, for so many reasons.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:17 pm

@topazg

topazg wrote:
$$Wcm40
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The only move really. It's points (and quite a few of them), and helps keep Black from settling too easily with points himself. Time will tell whether he takes the move I predicted at J3. If he doesn't, I absolutely have to have a long hard think about the best move down there, as he's unsettled enough that it's a super big place to play. If he does, I have to decide how much to be willing to let go of. For example:

$$Wcm44
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . 9 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 8 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 O 0 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . 9 . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X 8 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 O 0 . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This kind of thing feels horribly big on the bottom, but maybe there's enough central potential to warrant it?

Some thought will be needed, which I'll endeavour to post when we get there.

EDIT: above really does look like it smells of something despicable. Playing it at must be better, for so many reasons.

Did you consider the slide to H2 by any chance? If so, what did you think of it?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:28 pm

@skydyr

Did you consider the slide to H2 by any chance? If so, what did you think of it?

Yeah, I considered doing something on the lower side, but it felt inconsistent with what I'd been doing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The marked Black stone doesn't feel all that important - as soon as Black gets this :b49:

, I feel like I've lost points and sente. I sort of have to block or my left side gets a bit trashed, and if I respond, I've let Black get points and settle in sente, which makes me sad. I don't feel I can attack the marked stone in sente, which means I'd sort of have to take gote twice to eat it, and even then I'm unsure if I've reclaimed the points I lost in the corner (furthermore, it still retains too much aji for my liking).

In the game position, I'm also slightly biased by the followups I have which also appeal:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . x . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 x x . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . x 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

depending on what Black does, all of the marked points offer some kind of interesting value to me.

Further thoughts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | d . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . b X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . a X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I absolutely must make this a-d exchange soon I think. If I'm serious about making points on the left, the aji at "e" is horrible. And either I take sente or I think he dies in the corner, so why I've left it this long is a bit beyond me!

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu May 21, 2015 12:09 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . 0 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 0 . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I really wanted to play this. Looks dicey, but also like a lot of fun : )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 1a $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 X X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . 3 X 5 . 1 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ouch.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 1b $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 X X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . 2 1 O 5 . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ouch.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 1c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 2 4 X X . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . 5 X 9 3 1 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X 6 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It hurts immensely but I wonder whether I have really good Aji here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 1d $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 . O 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 4 . 6 . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . 2 . X X 8 . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . 3 1 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Seems better but solidies both the Moyo and White's bottom group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . 0 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 3 2 4 9 . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X 1 . 5 . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Looks playable. Of course :w50:

is not a particualr good move, I think, but the most agressive, which I tend to read first (and most of the times it's also the only move I read). I guess I'm fine here, yes, I'm fine : )

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu May 21, 2015 1:44 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So, making this exchange whilst I think it's sente, and will then most likely probe in the top right corner before deciding what to do on the bottom or the right hand side. Some thoughts so far:

That black :b49:

is really, really big. I figured he'd play there, as otherwise I get to play on the bottom and have a settled group whereas his floating. The current position is the exact reverse. My bottom group is floating, and his group is more or less settled. I should get C2 in sente however, which is at least worth a decent number of points.

So if the difference between one being settled and the other not, or vice versa, is so big, why did I let it happen? Honestly, I'm not sure if the exchanges were in my best interests, I'm feeling somewhat unconvinced by my :rambo:

move of

.. another simple way to play would have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . W . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 6 4 . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 . 5 O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is quite possibly superior in every way. My concerns were that the 3-3 is still open, and Black has succeeded in pressing White's position in sente. In the actual game, I have a lot of potential in the centre, and have secured the 3-3, with the possibility of securing the corner further, possibly in sente.

That's not to say my other idea is better, I'm beginning to suspect :w44:

is a mistake, but I was conscious that having exchanged all the marked stones (above) for White, I wanted to have a plan that tried to make the most use of them. It's undeniable I'm taking a loss in return, the shape of :b43:

and the White stone at L3 is pretty unbearable really, particularly as I want to save R4 at some point later, and "running out" with the group could damage that stone in the process. In contrast, I now have a rather huge moyo, invading which will be somewhat tricky I hope.

This is the sort of position that I find very hard to analyse post game. If I make a giant moyo on the left/middle, and win the game because of it, it will all feel like a great inspiration and the winning theme/idea. If I get invaded and badly reduced, it will feel like a terrible mistake and a bit of a disaster. The problem I will have is it won't be clear whether the success or failure of that said invasion will be due to what's happened so far, or subsequent bad play by either side.

Still, the game certainly promises to be interesting, and from that perspective at least it feels like a win

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri May 22, 2015 1:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri May 22, 2015 1:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri May 22, 2015 3:10 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri May 22, 2015 3:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri May 22, 2015 3:27 am

I think topazg has severly underestimated the importance of j4 and the thickness black now has and his thinness, versus the thickness he would have if black gave it up. White's lower side group is now trash (so with that weakness r5 is much harder to wake up), and there is a cut at h6. j3 or skydyr's h2 feel a lot more important than 3-3 to me. And h2 could even make blocking the corner sente for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm48 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . 7 2 5 0 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 8 X 9 a . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri May 22, 2015 4:34 am

There are actually some moves I consider...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm50 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . | $$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . c a . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X d . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . X O b f O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

'c' seems lacklustre. Or is it so plain that it's actually great, like Shuei-style? Chan, I don't really see the Miai follow-up, tho (maybe 'e' and 'f'?).

'a' looks nice but I feel White can settle easily by Hane underneath and Keima in the corner. Although I very much like the exchange after the Keima because it makes his white approach stone much less anoying to deal with.

'b' seems powerful but also thin and a little bit complicated. If he extends towards the center I really don't want to connect underneath but play Hane from the top. Does that make 'b' a good inducing move or does it only end up as Mochikomi?

'd' was my first choice. Strong and thick. Though, I have a hard time coming up with follow-up moves or even a sequence for both sides...

What would Go Seigen do?

Life In 19x19

#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

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