#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

SoDesuNe wrote:No way, José! You tenuki'd :b49: and I think settling the shapes at the bottom is more important than points in the corner. Especially when I'm longing to plop some stones in the center.


There's a tricky psychological element here. If we assume that SoDesuNe is correct that the lower side is more urgent that answering in the corner, then even if the best move is to play there now that means incurring a loss in the top right from giving white two moves in a row there. The fact topazg has played those moves in the top left and then this move suggests he may not view the lower side as urgent, so if black answers this attachment probe white might not come back to "correct" his mistake and play at the bottom but do something else. In which case SoDesuNe could have his cake and eat it by answering here so as not to incur the loss in this corner, topazg does his move somewhere else that's not so important, and then he plays the lower side. In a real game you can see where your opponent is looking on the board to help make this decision ;-) .
skydyr
Oza
Posts: 2495
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 am
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Location: DC
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by skydyr »

Uberdude wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:No way, José! You tenuki'd :b49: and I think settling the shapes at the bottom is more important than points in the corner. Especially when I'm longing to plop some stones in the center.


There's a tricky psychological element here. If we assume that SoDesuNe is correct that the lower side is more urgent that answering in the corner, then even if the best move is to play there now that means incurring a loss in the top right from giving white two moves in a row there. The fact topazg has played those moves in the top left and then this move suggests he may not view the lower side as urgent, so if black answers this attachment probe white might not come back to "correct" his mistake and play at the bottom but do something else. In which case SoDesuNe could have his cake and eat it by answering here so as not to incur the loss in this corner, topazg does his move somewhere else that's not so important, and then he plays the lower side. In a real game you can see where your opponent is looking on the board to help make this decision ;-) .

Of course, sometimes they deliberately look away from the part of the board they are interested in so as not to draw your attention there. Tricky devils, opponents.
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

Ah yes, but exaggerated bluff looking looks different to real looking!
User avatar
SoDesuNe
Gosei
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 am
Rank: KGS 1-dan
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 490 times
Been thanked: 365 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I just go with my gut.
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

This turn locally feels nice, but it makes this cut less appealing with the empty triangle it creates:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 9 0 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
bayu
Lives with ko
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:33 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by bayu »

@Uberdude
I fail to see better local candidates than the turn that was played. Is there one, which leaves the cut more severe. Or would you cut directly without/before turning?
If something sank it might be a treasure. And 2kyu advice is not necessarily Dan repertoire..
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Uberdude »

@bayu
bayu wrote:@Uberdude
I fail to see better local candidates than the turn that was played. Is there one, which leaves the cut more severe. Or would you cut directly without/before turning?


It depends what I think I can do inside white's left side with moves like c8 and d6. If nothing works then I might let white strengthen it and then play more severely on the lower group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As I commented a fair bit earlier, anything other than this really is just suicide at the bottom. Even this is very painful.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Kirby »

That group on the bottom sure is weak.

As a side note, I am bringing a blindfold to my next tournament.
be immersed
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
That group on the bottom sure is weak.

As a side note, I am bringing a blindfold to my next tournament.


:mrgreen:

How about silvered sunglasses?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
User avatar
SoDesuNe
Gosei
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 am
Rank: KGS 1-dan
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 490 times
Been thanked: 365 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


A disaster. My rambo move was so poorly thought through, funny how "reading" helps in Go :P
User avatar
SoDesuNe
Gosei
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 am
Rank: KGS 1-dan
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 490 times
Been thanked: 365 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by SoDesuNe »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X 5 . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X 6 . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O 7 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Not sure, how I will follow it up...
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X O O . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My poor, poor R4 stone.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

Post by Bill Spight »

topazg wrote:
My poor, poor R4 stone.


Actually, it's R-05. But yes: ¡pobrecito!
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Post Reply