My assessment is that white has made poor joseki choices in all three corners giving the star-point stone in the bottom right the most powerful position on the board. I feel like if white allows black to take either of the 4-7 points in the bottom right, the game will well be over. The problem is that it seems like any invasion into the bottom right would only strengthen the black position in gote. How should white prevent black from dominating the center?
White to play.
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
White to play.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
-
illluck
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1223
- Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:07 am
- Rank: OGS 2d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: illluck
- Tygem: Trickprey
- OGS: illluck
- Has thanked: 736 times
- Been thanked: 239 times
Re: White to play.
I don't think it's really the joseki choice - it's mainly that white played an extra move on the lower left when not needed. I sort of want to try either "a" or "b" here, but not confident if that's the right way to play.
-
Bki
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:59 am
- Rank: IGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Bki
- IGS: mlbki
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 14 times
Re: White to play.
Well, the variation played in the upper left is certainly questionable given it still leave aji for black to use in the corner. Still, Black has a nice formation on two side of the board, while white can really only look forward to building the top.
My intuition is a shoulder hit at a, which induce black blocking the other (narrower) side when white invade at b, then one of the c point sounds good.
Or maybe play b directly and leave a for later?
My intuition is a shoulder hit at a, which induce black blocking the other (narrower) side when white invade at b, then one of the c point sounds good.
Or maybe play b directly and leave a for later?
-
SoDesuNe
- Gosei
- Posts: 1810
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 am
- Rank: KGS 1-dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 490 times
- Been thanked: 365 times
Re: White to play.
This is my first instict.
The reason is that any checking extension towards Black's bottom group could make it pretty weak, thanks to the marked stone. And if Black should pincer
then, he has two choices. Low and his entire bottom is flat, White can even attach on the pincering stone and then double approach the corner. If Black pincers high, White should have no trouble living there.
The reason is that any checking extension towards Black's bottom group could make it pretty weak, thanks to the marked stone. And if Black should pincer
then, he has two choices. Low and his entire bottom is flat, White can even attach on the pincering stone and then double approach the corner. If Black pincers high, White should have no trouble living there.-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: White to play.
Yes, Black has taken an early lead. But the game is far from over, especially at the DDK level.
looks like the natural play to me. Through 
White puts some pressure on the weak 
group in the bottom left. 
looks like the natural play to me. Through White puts some pressure on the weak group in the bottom left. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: White to play.
What I fear is an exchange like this, only developing black's position further.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
-
DJLLAP
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:32 pm
- Rank: 1 kyu KGS
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: djllap
- Location: Denver, CO
- Has thanked: 4 times
- Been thanked: 47 times
Re: White to play.
I don't think Black is in much danger of dominating the center at all right now. All of B's marked stones are low, which make them inefficient at controlling the center.
All W really needs to do to prevent that from happening is avoid choosing variations that give W territory and B thickness pointing towards the center. Maybe you don't feel comfortable doing exchanges for influence, so naturally choose territory every time? For example the most common joseki for the position you said you were worried about involves gaining access to the center, but you chose a variation that cut you off from the center.
A more appropriate variation being this:
All W really needs to do to prevent that from happening is avoid choosing variations that give W territory and B thickness pointing towards the center. Maybe you don't feel comfortable doing exchanges for influence, so naturally choose territory every time? For example the most common joseki for the position you said you were worried about involves gaining access to the center, but you chose a variation that cut you off from the center.
Joelnelsonb wrote:What I fear is an exchange like this, only developing black's position further.
A more appropriate variation being this:
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: White to play.
jumps into the corner. 
is a good play, leaving Black with an open skirt on the right side.White can take kikashi with
and then play 
on the frontier of frameworks.White has reasonable chances.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bki
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:59 am
- Rank: IGS 3k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Bki
- IGS: mlbki
- Has thanked: 23 times
- Been thanked: 14 times
Re: White to play.
Honestly, I think I would prefer this for black. Sure, the bottom side is low, but it's also fairly safe, while if 
was high, then white could slide and take away much of his base.
Of course, because white end with sente, this certainly is not bad for him either. He can invade the right side afterwards, or defend the top side, or shoulder hit the bottom side...
was high, then white could slide and take away much of his base.Of course, because white end with sente, this certainly is not bad for him either. He can invade the right side afterwards, or defend the top side, or shoulder hit the bottom side...
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: White to play.
Btw, I've been told that white should always play the 1-3 in the bottom left after black plays around 3-10 (or vice versa) to prevent a cramped shaped.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: White to play.
- 
is a common exchange. White secures the corner.If White plays
elsewhere, then 
pretty well forces 
to protect against a Black play at "a".The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Vesa
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:44 am
- Rank: EGF 5 dan
- GD Posts: 29
- Has thanked: 6 times
- Been thanked: 65 times
Re: White to play.
Nobody suggested this one yet? Especially because the circle stone is played.
Continuations might give white a good opportunity to reduce the right side later.
Cheers,
Vesa
Continuations might give white a good opportunity to reduce the right side later.
Cheers,
Vesa
-
Uberdude
- Judan
- Posts: 6727
- Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
- Rank: UK 4 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Uberdude 4d
- OGS: Uberdude 7d
- Location: Cambridge, UK
- Has thanked: 436 times
- Been thanked: 3718 times
Re: White to play.
Is the top left shape correct? It looks like they played a common 3-4 joseki and then used the sleeve tesuji to make it a 4-4 non-joseki.
As Bill said c2 is a common defence when black plays c8. But it is not an always. There are very few always in Go. And black didn't even play c8 in this game but c9 so the white corner has lots more room and a defence is unnecessary and slow.Joelnelsonb wrote:Btw, I've been told that white should always play the 1-3 in the bottom left after black plays around 3-10 (or vice versa) to prevent a cramped shaped.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: White to play.
Supposing that the board earlier looked like this:
If White replies to with , we may anticipate that the play will continue like this, with White taking gote with 
. (Given White's desire to play .)
OTOH, if White replies simply at, we may anticipate something like this, which allows White to take sente.
If White replies to
with , we may anticipate that the play will continue like this, with White taking gote with . (Given White's desire to play .)OTOH, if White replies simply at
, we may anticipate something like this, which allows White to take sente.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: White to play.
So in posting this question, I wasn't looking so much for a particular sequence of moves but rather a general strategy for breaking up the black infrastructure. It appears, based on all the answers given, that white's best plan would be to approach the star point stone while putting pressure on the weak group in the bottom left. I think I missed this because I underestimated the potential of the 2-3 stone played by white. I've been reading "The Direction of Play" (which is an amazing book, btw. not sure how I've gotten so far without it. He starts off by telling you to forget everything you think you know about Go and he reteaches you the fundamentals of the game from scratch). In the book, he heavily encourages using the full potential of every stone played (especially in the opening) and this puzzle demonstrates my weakness in this regard.
Edit: Probably the biggest point that he makes in the book is to stop playing joseki moves simply because they're joseki. Instead, he teaches you to continually assess the whole board on every move and to search for the "direction of play" instead. He demonstrates how insanely important the very first moves of the game are.
Edit: Probably the biggest point that he makes in the book is to stop playing joseki moves simply because they're joseki. Instead, he teaches you to continually assess the whole board on every move and to search for the "direction of play" instead. He demonstrates how insanely important the very first moves of the game are.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...