To reduce the strong influence and to stabilize the upper white side. If Black plays at 8 it is territoy and a double wing structure. That is huge so early in the game. But I could be wrong, I am not such a strong player.Cassandra wrote:Why do you want to approach thickness ?
Tewari analysis
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Pippen
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Re: Tewari analysis
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Tewari analysis
I can understand the "PARIS IN THE THE SPRING" kind of misread, but for the life of me I cannot understand the high frequency of misreads in this forum. Is it wilful?You can be pedantic and insist that this is only about 'joseki' (although I think you must have to close your eyes for some of Kobayashi's diagrams in order to maintain your theory).
I said "mainly joseki", Cassandra said "mainly", yet you change it to "only" joseki. On top of that, the Kobayashi quoted is also mainly about joseki, as observed by Cassandra, and that is implicit in Kobayashi's words cited ("Tewari plays a role ALSO in fuseki", i.e. joseki gets the main mention).
But this problem is widespread. I have no doubt I do it myself.
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Cassandra
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Re: Tewari analysis
I think that I am weaker than you, but I would like to suppose that there are bigger points on the board than White / Black 8.Pippen wrote:To reduce the strong influence and to stabilize the upper white side. If Black plays at 8 it is territoy and a double wing structure. That is huge so early in the game. But I could be wrong, I am not such a strong player.Cassandra wrote:Why do you want to approach thickness ?
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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illluck
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Re: Tewari analysis
To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."John Fairbairn wrote:I can understand the "PARIS IN THE THE SPRING" kind of misread, but for the life of me I cannot understand the high frequency of misreads in this forum. Is it wilful?You can be pedantic and insist that this is only about 'joseki' (although I think you must have to close your eyes for some of Kobayashi's diagrams in order to maintain your theory).
I said "mainly joseki", Cassandra said "mainly", yet you change it to "only" joseki. On top of that, the Kobayashi quoted is also mainly about joseki, as observed by Cassandra, and that is implicit in Kobayashi's words cited ("Tewari plays a role ALSO in fuseki", i.e. joseki gets the main mention).
But this problem is widespread. I have no doubt I do it myself.
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Cassandra
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Re: Tewari analysis
Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Bill Spight
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Re: Tewari analysis
At this point in the opening, it is small. Compare, for instance, these diagrams.Pippen wrote:@Bill: You are right, my alternation didn't make sense, but why is 8 bad in the re-shuffled board? It stabilizes the upper side for White and limits Black's corner which has become bullstrong with 5.
Which do you prefer for White?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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illluck
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Re: Tewari analysis
Do you really think using tewari for fuseki is like driving nails into the wall with a plier?Cassandra wrote:Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
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Kirby
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Re: Tewari analysis
I think the evidence is pretty clear from ez4u's book image: Kobayashi Satoru says that tewari is also useful in fuseki.
Why don't we leave it at that?
Why don't we leave it at that?
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Tewari analysis
I think a better analogy is something like this: "You can use a lens in a microscope, but it was really intended for use in a telescope."Cassandra wrote:Pliers are not really intended for driving nails into the wall, but they can be used for this purpose, too.illluck wrote:To be fair, the way you made that statement made it appear as you think it does not apply to fuseki. "That's probably because tewari (dissection of moves, aka ishiwari) is not really intended for fuseki."
Tewari is used to examine the efficiency of moves in a sequence. Whether it is applied to joseki or fuseki, it is the same kind of tool in either case.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Cassandra
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Re: Tewari analysis
-- Tewari is a tool for analysing the relative efficiency of moves.
-- Its methodology is optimised for the usage in Jôseki.
This does not imply that it is excluded to find single use cases outside the field of Jôseki.
+ + + + + + + +
However, the less restricted its field of observation the larger the danger of widening the original methodology (imperceptibly, with the best of intentions).
This is my motivation to suggest finding / using another technical term, if one wants to have an efficiency-measurement-tool that has its main focus in the later stages of the game.
-- Its methodology is optimised for the usage in Jôseki.
This does not imply that it is excluded to find single use cases outside the field of Jôseki.
+ + + + + + + +
However, the less restricted its field of observation the larger the danger of widening the original methodology (imperceptibly, with the best of intentions).
This is my motivation to suggest finding / using another technical term, if one wants to have an efficiency-measurement-tool that has its main focus in the later stages of the game.
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
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Pippen
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Re: Tewari analysis
Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.Bill Spight wrote: Which do you prefer for White?
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SoDesuNe
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Sennahoj
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Re: Tewari analysis
Pippen do you really think that the area around a is the biggest on the board? To me the lower side is clearly bigger, because it is widest. For black, playing around a will be overconcentrated (and therefor it is small for white as well).
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topazg
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Re: Tewari analysis
.... Bill is comfortably KGS 4d+....Pippen wrote:Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Tewari analysis
You need to develop your own judgement. Why rely upon authority?Pippen wrote:Of course the first one, in the second White looks worse or at least not better. Because there White is thin everywhere, while Black has a bullstrong corner with a double wing. Let's see what some really strong players (4d+ KGS, 8d+ Tygem) would prefer. Maybe someone can check Zen or CS for that.Bill Spight wrote: Which do you prefer for White?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.