Really love your translations of the Golden Rules, i think they're very very good.
One thing i noticed when reading up on translations from the chinese was the "don't be hasty" proverb was that it was with respect to taking sente to quickly move around the board. Supposedly it had shades of "don't rush take sente everywhere, leaving yourself thin," i.e., sometimes it's ok to play the slow, gote move that gives you a thick strong shape.
Anyway, great to read these posts!
Kirby's Study Journal
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seigenblues
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thanks, seigenblues. It's pretty funny that you mention this one in particular, because I had a long discussion about this with my wife before posting the translation here about this precise rule.seigenblues wrote:Really love your translations of the Golden Rules, i think they're very very good.
One thing i noticed when reading up on translations from the chinese was the "don't be hasty" proverb was that it was with respect to taking sente to quickly move around the board. Supposedly it had shades of "don't rush take sente everywhere, leaving yourself thin," i.e., sometimes it's ok to play the slow, gote move that gives you a thick strong shape.
Anyway, great to read these posts!
When I read Korean translations, either from Tygem, or from the image here, the descriptions were always about playing thought out moves, rather than "playing hasty". However, the translation on Senseis Library directly makes reference to making "thick shape". This bothered me, because I assume that the person making the translation must have had a reason for bringing up thick play. Yet no Korean description I could find had any mention of thick play vs. thin play. Someone that speaks Chinese can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my knowledge of the Chinese characters that are used, there is nothing here that explicitly says anything about playing "thick".
The conclusion I have come to is that proverbs are often ambiguous, because it can make them widely applicable.
In English, if I look at someone playing go and say, "You play fast", it's ambiguous. I could be saying that they play quickly across the board. Or I could be saying that they don't use any of the time on their clock. All I've really said is that they play fast.
I think the same is true from this rule. The rule says not to play too fast. Does it mean that you should play in a "thick" way? I don't know. SL says so, but that's the only thing I have to base it on so far.
Regardless, I still think that playing in a thick way is good, so whatever the original author's intent was, it can't hurt to keep in mind.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Now that there's been more discussion about #7, I was more curious about it (i.e., it bothered me 
).
So I asked a couple of different friends at my work who are native Chinese speakers and go players, too. I received slightly different responses.
A: "Hmm, my understanding is think more before making the move"
B: "it’s somehow telling you 'not to win the game quickly'. It’s even less about thin/thick, territory/potential. It’s the subtle choice that you make that leads the game. If you make choices that reflect 'I want to win this game in this round', then it’s 'too fast'."
My feeling is that these ideas are closely related. The general idea I personally get is that this is about being patient, prudent, uneager to win the game quickly... This kind of feeling.
Perhaps playing in a thick way can be related to this.
).So I asked a couple of different friends at my work who are native Chinese speakers and go players, too. I received slightly different responses.
A: "Hmm, my understanding is think more before making the move"
B: "it’s somehow telling you 'not to win the game quickly'. It’s even less about thin/thick, territory/potential. It’s the subtle choice that you make that leads the game. If you make choices that reflect 'I want to win this game in this round', then it’s 'too fast'."
My feeling is that these ideas are closely related. The general idea I personally get is that this is about being patient, prudent, uneager to win the game quickly... This kind of feeling.
Perhaps playing in a thick way can be related to this.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
And perhaps the reason that I have a difficult time fully comprehending the extent of the meaning to #7, is that it is something that I don't know how to put into practice very well.
Certainly, when I play, I am eager to have more points than my opponent.
Certainly, when I play, I am eager to have more points than my opponent.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
First, I am not at all sure that the proverb applies here. White needs to make something happen, or resign. Caution is hardly called for.Kirby wrote:Looking at this last game, there are clearly rules that I broke. Let's take a look at a few:
#7: Don't be hasty or rash; exercise caution. Clearly, my cut here does not exercise caution. It looks like I'm saying, "Screw caution. Let's party!" Reading just 3 moves ahead, I would see that it's futile to try to cut these stones. There's no way I can get a good result.
Obviously, this cut was rash.
Second, why the criticism of this play, when it was earlier plays that got White into this pickle?
Ever since this exchange, it seems like White has been intent to prove that
was a mistake, by trading the 
stones for the 
stones. The cut in question is the only play consistent with that plan. A better plan might have been to sacrifice 
in order to strengthen the stones, but White added five stones to , making a big, heavy shape.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I've been thinking of that proverb that was discussed here yesterday, and how I don't understand it well. I often play fast and spread myself out across the board. Why is that?
I think it's because I value territory. I don't know how to measure "thickness" well, or even influence. So when I try to estimate the score, I count up definite territory - that's my metric. Therefore, my strategy is always based on definite territory (when I am thinking enough to have a strategy). As a side note, yesterday during my commute home, I decided to try to read more of that "Attack and Defense" book. It's a really popular English go book, but I never read it completely. It's interesting, but I can't get myself to finish it. So I tried again to make progress yesterday.
What stuck out to me was the description of the balance between territory and power. Typically, I am primarily only focused on the former.
So my resolution was this: I need to get a better understanding of "power". In the last few games, I was the one being attacked, even though I had lots of cash in the bank. So instead, I'd like to turn it around. I want to be the attacker, so I can learn more of the value of power.
With these thoughts in mind, I played a game on KGS today. I started out with the intention of being the attacker. I played two 3-5 points as white, ready to attack my opponent. Be that as it may, I reverted to my usual self - I just went for territory, and ended up being attacked.
To top things off, I even made two weak groups this game. So my goal of being the attacker hasn't yet been fulfilled. I will try again next game.
Anyway, here's my review.
--
I guess from this game I can learn, "just opening with a couple of 3-5 points doesn't make me an attacker". The best I can say now is that I'm an attacker wannabe.
I think it's because I value territory. I don't know how to measure "thickness" well, or even influence. So when I try to estimate the score, I count up definite territory - that's my metric. Therefore, my strategy is always based on definite territory (when I am thinking enough to have a strategy). As a side note, yesterday during my commute home, I decided to try to read more of that "Attack and Defense" book. It's a really popular English go book, but I never read it completely. It's interesting, but I can't get myself to finish it. So I tried again to make progress yesterday.
What stuck out to me was the description of the balance between territory and power. Typically, I am primarily only focused on the former.
So my resolution was this: I need to get a better understanding of "power". In the last few games, I was the one being attacked, even though I had lots of cash in the bank. So instead, I'd like to turn it around. I want to be the attacker, so I can learn more of the value of power.
With these thoughts in mind, I played a game on KGS today. I started out with the intention of being the attacker. I played two 3-5 points as white, ready to attack my opponent. Be that as it may, I reverted to my usual self - I just went for territory, and ended up being attacked.
To top things off, I even made two weak groups this game. So my goal of being the attacker hasn't yet been fulfilled. I will try again next game.
Anyway, here's my review.
--
I guess from this game I can learn, "just opening with a couple of 3-5 points doesn't make me an attacker". The best I can say now is that I'm an attacker wannabe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Garr. I accidentally closed the window on my diagrams... I'll try one more time.
Some Highlights
Position 1 This is OK, probably, but not the way for an attacker wannabe to play! I think I should play this way to go with my strategy: Can't be that bad.
Position 2 I think this is the wrong area, given black's position on top. The bottom seems much bigger: Position 3 Seems slow. I think it's good to help the group, but the center seems more interesting: Position 4 This is too much. I made a mistake, I think. I should just take it easy - he's overconcentrated, anyway: Position 5 This is a good example of my stubbornness. Yes, I made a mistake. But I shouldn't amplify it. The move above just doesn't give up.
Instead, I should take the loss: Black gained points - but he should, because I made a mistake. I don't need to amplify it. Acknowledge that he should get more points now, because I screwed up. Acknowledge it.
Position 6 This move is too hasty. I think this is a stronger defense: I think I assumed too quickly that he had no good moves, and I overlooked the Ko.
---
I somehow managed to win this game, but I think that it shouldn't have been that way. I think there are two big mistakes:
1. Playing on the bottom was bigger than the top, as mentioned above.
2. Making two weak groups was no good. And I should have admitted when I made a mistake.
---
I think it's hard for me to admit when I've made a mistake on the board. Then I try to justify it - but it just amplifies the mistake. The truth is the truth - if I've made a mistake, I owe my opponent points.
I should give him those points and move on. Otherwise, it gets bigger as time goes on.
Some Highlights
Position 1 This is OK, probably, but not the way for an attacker wannabe to play! I think I should play this way to go with my strategy: Can't be that bad.
Position 2 I think this is the wrong area, given black's position on top. The bottom seems much bigger: Position 3 Seems slow. I think it's good to help the group, but the center seems more interesting: Position 4 This is too much. I made a mistake, I think. I should just take it easy - he's overconcentrated, anyway: Position 5 This is a good example of my stubbornness. Yes, I made a mistake. But I shouldn't amplify it. The move above just doesn't give up.
Instead, I should take the loss: Black gained points - but he should, because I made a mistake. I don't need to amplify it. Acknowledge that he should get more points now, because I screwed up. Acknowledge it.
Position 6 This move is too hasty. I think this is a stronger defense: I think I assumed too quickly that he had no good moves, and I overlooked the Ko.
---
I somehow managed to win this game, but I think that it shouldn't have been that way. I think there are two big mistakes:
1. Playing on the bottom was bigger than the top, as mentioned above.
2. Making two weak groups was no good. And I should have admitted when I made a mistake.
---
I think it's hard for me to admit when I've made a mistake on the board. Then I try to justify it - but it just amplifies the mistake. The truth is the truth - if I've made a mistake, I owe my opponent points.
I should give him those points and move on. Otherwise, it gets bigger as time goes on.
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Shaddy
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
48 is aji keshi, 50 should be M16 to be consistent with the earlier extension on top. The 50 in the game has no effect on his stones.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Your suggestion of 50 is very interesting. I think it must be good, but it is the kind of move that I would never think of playing in this situation.Shaddy wrote:48 is aji keshi, 50 should be M16 to be consistent with the earlier extension on top. The 50 in the game has no effect on his stones.
When I look at the board, I think, "Uh oh, black has potential for big territory on the bottom", and that's where my focus is.
Maybe that blinds me from looking for any sort of weaknesses on top.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
For the first time this week, I'm able to actually sit down and study. I think I'm having an epiphany or something. Maybe I'm just tired. But I want to write it down here so that I don't forget.
I think I'm making studying go too complicated. It's simple. Just do it.
Doesn't seem that useful, but anyway, feels important right now.
OK, back to my book.
Bye.
I think I'm making studying go too complicated. It's simple. Just do it.
Doesn't seem that useful, but anyway, feels important right now.
OK, back to my book.
Bye.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Some comments on the opening.
Black's slow play did not give you much scope for attacking, but you missed your opportunities.
Black's slow play did not give you much scope for attacking, but you missed your opportunities.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Charles Matthews
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I thinkKirby wrote:I played another game today against KGS 1d. I lost, and I deserved it. I maybe had a chance to get lucky, but it would have been just luck.
I primarily contribute the loss to ignoring one of the rules I mentioned from yesterday:
Kirby from Yesterday wrote:9. 피강가보: In the event that my opponent is strong, plan for the safety of my own stones.
is too early. Who knows how the fighting will go?
at R9 looks better to me. Slow things down, settle one group at a time. 
is OK.
- if you just want to live, play R10.-
Kirby
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Highlights
Position 1 I can understand why I played the marked move. But as an end result, he really solidified the right side as territory.
It might be too soon.
Maybe I should just let it be for now, and play again on the top right.
The aji is still there, and there's more chance I can do something on the right side later, when it's bigger.
Position 2 Invading the 3-3 is big, and makes sense since I am strong on the outside, I think. But I can't help but feel that I ignored the potential that he was building up on the right side.
Should I to make something happen there first?
I dunno. Maybe the 3-3 is bigger.
Or maybe I should start on the bottom: Somehow I feel that what I played wasn't biggest, but I don't know what's best.
Position 3 I played this without much thought.
But maybe this pressures his group more: If I could kill his group, it would even the score a bit.
Position 4 I'd say I'm losing by a little bit, so I played the marked move to reduce more... But with the weakness at 'a', I think it's too much.
I should either protect 'a', or play 'b', which is a lot of points. Then, hope for the best.
This far into the game, I shouldn't introduce so much risk - I just need to wait for a chance.
---
I guess that's it. I should probably see more problems with this game, because it feels like I should have done better. Maybe I'm still a bit sick from the weekend.
Anyway, let's keep moving forward.
Position 1 I can understand why I played the marked move. But as an end result, he really solidified the right side as territory.
It might be too soon.
Maybe I should just let it be for now, and play again on the top right.
The aji is still there, and there's more chance I can do something on the right side later, when it's bigger.
Position 2 Invading the 3-3 is big, and makes sense since I am strong on the outside, I think. But I can't help but feel that I ignored the potential that he was building up on the right side.
Should I to make something happen there first?
I dunno. Maybe the 3-3 is bigger.
Or maybe I should start on the bottom: Somehow I feel that what I played wasn't biggest, but I don't know what's best.
Position 3 I played this without much thought.
But maybe this pressures his group more: If I could kill his group, it would even the score a bit.
Position 4 I'd say I'm losing by a little bit, so I played the marked move to reduce more... But with the weakness at 'a', I think it's too much.
I should either protect 'a', or play 'b', which is a lot of points. Then, hope for the best.
This far into the game, I shouldn't introduce so much risk - I just need to wait for a chance.
---
I guess that's it. I should probably see more problems with this game, because it feels like I should have done better. Maybe I'm still a bit sick from the weekend.
Anyway, let's keep moving forward.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
As a side note, I recently watched the latest review Inseong did of one of my different games.
One part, which I found interesting, was that he mentioned that one of my big weaknesses is that, when there are "tight" areas in the game - local life and death situation, practical fighting, and other areas where there is a lot of pressure/importance, I fail at reading and play a bad move.
I think I need to be more precise in these types of situations.
Right now in such situations, when I read, I can feel the point where I leave things up to intuition. I read, "black, white, black, white... OK... I don't know exactly all possibilities, but it'll probably be OK."
That level of reading has me at 1d on KGS (maybe 1k or 2k, sometimes)... If I want to increase and move to a higher rank, then I think it's necessary that this level of reading must also be increased.
If I currently read, "black, white, black, white...", then I need to change this to read, "black, white, black, white, black, white..." just a little bit more before leaving to intuition. Or perhaps, "black (alternative 1), white (alternative 1), black (alternative 1), white (alternative 1)"... You get the picture, maybe.
Anyway, if I want to have a higher rank, I think it won't just come automatically. I think I should start by consciously aiming to play at a higher level.
And this means more precision.
One part, which I found interesting, was that he mentioned that one of my big weaknesses is that, when there are "tight" areas in the game - local life and death situation, practical fighting, and other areas where there is a lot of pressure/importance, I fail at reading and play a bad move.
I think I need to be more precise in these types of situations.
Right now in such situations, when I read, I can feel the point where I leave things up to intuition. I read, "black, white, black, white... OK... I don't know exactly all possibilities, but it'll probably be OK."
That level of reading has me at 1d on KGS (maybe 1k or 2k, sometimes)... If I want to increase and move to a higher rank, then I think it's necessary that this level of reading must also be increased.
If I currently read, "black, white, black, white...", then I need to change this to read, "black, white, black, white, black, white..." just a little bit more before leaving to intuition. Or perhaps, "black (alternative 1), white (alternative 1), black (alternative 1), white (alternative 1)"... You get the picture, maybe.
Anyway, if I want to have a higher rank, I think it won't just come automatically. I think I should start by consciously aiming to play at a higher level.
And this means more precision.
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