Fun tsumego problem

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
dfan
Gosei
Posts: 1598
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:49 am
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Has thanked: 891 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by dfan »

deja wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:Right, so white makes a ko threat...

But wherever white moves next, black just takes that group, no?

What if white's next move threatens to capture 40 stones? Do you still just take the lower right group?

Here's a more quantitative way to look at it than just "killing is better than ko":

In your solution, the sequence goes bwbWbW, where uppercase letters are moves played elsewhere on the board.
In the correct solution, the sequence goes bwbW (or bW, if White stops thrashing).

In both cases, both players have played the same number of moves as each other. But in your solution, white has gotten to play an extra stone somewhere else on the board for free (two capital W's instead of one).
User avatar
deja
Lives in gote
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:44 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by deja »

dfan wrote:
deja wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:Right, so white makes a ko threat...

But wherever white moves next, black just takes that group, no?

What if white's next move threatens to capture 40 stones? Do you still just take the lower right group?

Here's a more quantitative way to look at it than just "killing is better than ko":

In your solution, the sequence goes bwbWbW, where uppercase letters are moves played elsewhere on the board.
In the correct solution, the sequence goes bwbW (or bW, if White stops thrashing).

In both cases, both players have played the same number of moves as each other. But in your solution, white has gotten to play an extra stone somewhere else on the board for free (two capital W's instead of one).


I was looking at the problem from a local position only, since we have no idea what else is on the board. So "wherever white moves next" was in the context of white trying to save the two groups.
"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen
User avatar
Solomon
Gosei
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:21 pm
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Location: Bellevue, WA
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 835 times

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by Solomon »

When you see and solve this problem the first time, it really is hard to forget it because the solution, while not particularly difficult, is just so cute.
User avatar
SoDesuNe
Gosei
Posts: 1810
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 am
Rank: KGS 1-dan
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 490 times
Been thanked: 365 times

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by SoDesuNe »

Yeah, I also had a hard time with this problem in "Graded Go Problems For Beginners Volume 3". There were like a handful with this tactic. Pretty astonishing =)
k43r
Dies with sente
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 11:04 am
Rank: 1d
GD Posts: 95
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by k43r »

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Similar problem, but from real kgs game. B to kill ^^ (solution wasn't played in game, kibitz found it)
User avatar
flOvermind
Lives with ko
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:19 am
Rank: EGF 4 kyu
GD Posts: 627
Location: Linz, Austria
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Fun tsumego problem

Post by flOvermind »

k43r wrote:Similar problem, but from real kgs game. B to kill ^^ (solution wasn't played in game, kibitz found it)


Nice ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ------------+
$$ . X O O 1 4 |
$$ . X X O 2 . |
$$ X . X O O 5 |
$$ O . X X O 3 |
$$ O . X O B B |
$$ X X X O . . |
$$ O X O O O O |
$$ . O X X O . |
$$ O O . X X O |
$$ X . X X O . |
$$ . X X O O O |
$$ X . . X X . |
$$ . X X X . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 7 at 1
$$ ------------+
$$ . X O O 1 6 |
$$ . X X O 3 4 |
$$ X . X O O . |
$$ O . X X O 5 |
$$ O . X O B B |
$$ X X X O 2 . |
$$ O X O O O O |
$$ . O X X O . |
$$ O O . X X O |
$$ X . X X O . |
$$ . X X O O O |
$$ X . . X X . |
$$ . X X X . . |[/go]


White can't atari :bc: from either side.
Post Reply