Corner from game

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emeraldemon
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Corner from game

Post by emeraldemon »

What should white have done here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . . O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the game white lost the corner and resigned:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 155 to 164
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . 3 O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . 4 O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . 0 O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 5 . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 6 . 7 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 4 @ 5 easily lives, but I'm sure white wanted the most points possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Alive
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . 3 O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . 2 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like playing the hane instead of solid connect might work, but maybe there's an attack I'm missing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . 3 O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . 4 O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 6 . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 2 . 1 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This way black captures 2 stones, so maybe it's actually worse?
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Re: Corner from game

Post by Loons »

Can you quickly show why :w8: cannot be D1 in your last diagram?
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DrStraw
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Re: Corner from game

Post by DrStraw »

Loons wrote:Can you quickly show why :w8: cannot be D1 in your last diagram?


Mainly because D1 is occupied. If you meant E1 then :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | 7 X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | 6 O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | 5 . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 O 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Corner from game

Post by Loons »

Oh, yes, that potential ko is a picnic for black.

Edit: However, white took sente against living with points in DrStraw's diagram. Versus... Living in gote with ~3 points in emeraldemon's second diagram.

Emeraldemon's last diagram is slightly harder for me to count. White has... Five points in gote?

Edit edit : Which is to say, DrStraw's position ends leaving a 4 point gote after white's implicit last move. Eight. I should really count in a consistent and comparable way. Is it actually worth 2 points for white?
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Re: Corner from game

Post by emeraldemon »

Now I'm more confused. Isn't the line in DrStraw's diagram seki? Is there a ko I'm missing?
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Re: Corner from game

Post by DrStraw »

emeraldemon wrote:Now I'm more confused. Isn't the line in DrStraw's diagram seki? Is there a ko I'm missing?


Yes, it is seki.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Corner from game

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | X X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | O O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Did I turn into a DDK? Bottom left is unsettled.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | X X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | O O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | X . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White has lived in gote, and there are eight points in gote at stake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | 7 . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | 6 X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | 5 . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 O 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Picnic (ish) ko for black. White would have needed an unremoveable ko threat.
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Re: Corner from game

Post by DrStraw »

I assumed that W would play as in your second diagram and B would capture, giving seki. In the third diagram B just connects with 7 and it reverts.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Corner from game

Post by Loons »

Oh, yes, sorry, the implicit :w8: and :b9: made it slightly unclear to me, also because :b9: was gote it shouldn't be implicitly played? What does 7... connect revert to? Wait, I will make some coffee, and hopefully begin reading sensibly.
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Re: Corner from game

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | 9 7 X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | 6 X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | 5 8 O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 O 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White has lived in gote with ... what, 6 points? But black would not play this way.

Using some consistent kind of counting, Emeraldemon's last diagram was worth 2 1/2 points, and the solid connect turned out to be worth 2 points, where solidly connecting was worth 1 1/2 (just over) points. Possibly I need to go back and read DrStraw on this because I feel like I am that crazy person rambling.
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Re: Corner from game

Post by DrStraw »

Loons wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | 9 7 X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | 6 X O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | 5 8 O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 O 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White has lived in gote with ... what, 6 points? But black would not play this way.

Using some consistent kind of counting, Emeraldemon's last diagram was worth 2 1/2 points, and the solid connect turned out to be worth 2 points, where solidly connecting was worth 1 1/2 (just over) points. Possibly I need to go back and read DrStraw on this because I feel like I am that crazy person rambling.


You are right. I answered quickly and did not think about :w8:
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Corner from game

Post by emeraldemon »

Thanks for looking at this. It sounds like since the seki doesn't work, protecting with the hane makes the white group live with points?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 White saves the corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O X . . X . . O . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . O . O X , . . X X O O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . O X . . O X . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . X O O O X X . . X O O X O O O X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . X . X O O O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . X X X X . O X O . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X O O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X . . , X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . O O X X O . . . . . X . |
$$ | . X . X . . O . . O O X X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . X . X O . O O . . . . . X . X X O |
$$ | . 3 O X X O . . O . . . . . . . O O O |
$$ | . 4 O X X O . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought this was a relatively straightforward position, but it seems complicated to me now.
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