Anyone give a darn about go in the West?

[RobertJasiek]

Uh, there is at least one person providing some information about the European Go Congress 2015 and even with some note about Mateusz Surma:) So far there are these reports:

L19:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12154
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12159
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12164
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12157
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12165

Usenet:

<reihsadl8rg00mkilahj5su1hpp939v2rc@4ax.com>
<p06jsal97l4t1c62gqs5u5a4ovjujsgpd7@4ax.com>
<s80ksa12bsk4nrvb0gkg97fci7ko8piefm@4ax.com>
<op7msa1msuvnvd875f2i3e062v63kdrbch@4ax.com>
<1gimsahjrm7vihllu4s51ol9csdlrkeqj8@4ax.com>

But what about the US congress, what has happened there?

[Cassandra]

There is definitely a problem with advertising and communication in Go. I cannot believe that there are two major Go events happening in the west and neither of them is really covered on the one english-language forum which dinds us all together. I really don't get it... There should have been blow-by-blow accounts, terying to draw people in. Instead we have what? Mostly silence.

In addition, there is the even greater problem that Western Go seems to stew in its own juice only.

Of what use is e.g. some broadcasting from the European Congress / Championship to China, and Korea, when there is nothing to read in European Countries -- especially outside the Go community ?

[Bantari]

Uh, there is at least one person providing some information about the European Go Congress 2015 and even with some note about Mateusz Surma:) So far there are these reports:

L19:

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=12154
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12159
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12164
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12157
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=12165

Usenet:

<reihsadl8rg00mkilahj5su1hpp939v2rc@4ax.com>
<p06jsal97l4t1c62gqs5u5a4ovjujsgpd7@4ax.com>
<s80ksa12bsk4nrvb0gkg97fci7ko8piefm@4ax.com>
<op7msa1msuvnvd875f2i3e062v63kdrbch@4ax.com>
<1gimsahjrm7vihllu4s51ol9csdlrkeqj8@4ax.com>

But what about the US congress, what has happened there?

I know that there was some mention of that in here, this is how I learned about it.

To reiterate, what puzzles me is:

• WRT EGC/USGC - lack on some determined *official* campaign to spread the news. Post results, pictures, and whatnot. At least regular updated links to the even website (is there a regularily updated website?) It is called "marketing" and is is both important and basic. It seems to me that the effort would be minimal and potential benefits rather big. Not to mention that politically it would look very good of both the organizers and the officials.

And

• WRT Surma - lack of anything significant mentioned on polish-language websites that I could find, especially by at go.art.pl and psg.go.art.pl which seem to be the official channels for polish Go. From what I have seen, more excitement was visible on L19 by non-polish people than in Poland itself. Now - I do not have the means to judge how things are handled in other countries, but I would assume that if Germany had its first Pro, it would be mentioned on the DGB website, and the German players would be overall happy and proud and excited.

Both case are similar to me in the sanse that they signify huge opportunities to stir excitement about Go both within and without the respective community. And in both cases, it seems the opportunities were missed.

Anyways... I am probably just out of touch, and this is how things are handled these days.
It was probably all on Twitter or Instagram or something...

[John Fairbairn]

I have commented before on the still birth of pro go in the West but I feel the comments are worth repeating even though I am no expert on organising anything. What I can do is look at how things have been done elsewhere, draw some conclusions and invite further comment.

To present the nut in its shell first before trying to crack it: almost all the wannabe western pros are just waiting for other people to organise everything for them. Instead of the top-down process that we have seen in Japanese go, Korean go, Chinese go then Taiwanese go, they seem to expect western amateurs to keep busy building dunghills with their spades so that they can leap on top and act the crowing cock.

In reality western amateurs are just as self centred and organise events mainly for themselves where they can have a good time. For them the European Congress is not about a European champion or which player has the most chance to become a pro (and much, much less is it about minutiae of rules to decide who takes fourth place on a tie-break). A successful congress for the true amateurs is about making new friends, experiencing new cuisines and new scenes, meeting existing pros, playing games of Mornington Crescent, buying books and boards, forgetting the office, and playing the occasional game of go. And the numbers show that the organisers in both Europe and USA have consistently done a wonderful job in that regard. How much of that work was done by the wannabe pros?

In contrast, look at the tale of how the Nihon Ki-in was forged. I have written about it several times, and I have mentioned it again in a new book I have just completed. In part it is a tribute to Kato Shin. Apart from having a claim to being the top player for a while, he slaved away doing all the admin jobs for the fledgling organisations, including acting as a bouncer. Once the Ki-in started its own magazine, he filled its pages with novel articles and commentaries for the amateur audience (we can probably thank him for learning about tewari, for example). This was all top-down stuff. He rolled up his sleeves. He wielded his shovel. He put up with the smell. His boss Hirose Heijiro even had a nervous breakdown from all the work. And they were not alone. Honinbo Shusai was a massive contributor (and despite Go Seigen's snide remarks, Shusai probably did far more for amateurs then he ever did). But all the top pros contributed to organising, finding sponsors and cultivating amateurs.

In Korea it was pro Cho Nam-ch'eol who did the initial nitty-gritty, abetted by stalwarts such as Kim In. Cho Hun-hyeon later did a massive stint. In China it was top-down from the Party more than anything else but Chen Zude was the guy with the shovel, and even the oldies such as Li Dihuai and Gu Shuiru pitched in.

If we look at chess and various sports we can see a similar pattern: events and structures that lead to thriving pro scenes are mostly the result of pro endeavour. Look at the difference in what the fuddy-duddy amateurs of Wimbledon achieved (for pros) in a century compared with what the pro Tennis Tour achieved for itself.

Shouldn't it be a western pro who writes all the new books in English on go theory instead of amateur Robert Jasiek? Shouldn't it be a western pro who puts on a suit and goes to talk to potential sponsors instead of leaving it to part-time amateurs? Shouldn't it be a western pro who spends two weeks at a congress reaching and playing simuls, instead of leaving it CJK pros who often lack English? Shouldn't western pros be making themselves interesting to western amateurs instead of relying on amateurs to spend hours entering results on a web site?

I won't name names, but I have been told time and again by senior people within the pro scene in Japan, China, Korea and Taiwan that the attitude and behaviour shown by western pro wannabes (and also by some amateurs) has been a great disappointment. But then I suppose young people live now in world where they are encouraged to believe in entitlement.

Bring back the shovels, I say.

[Uberdude]

It seems to me some people on L19 have a self-important view of this forum as being the #1 place for Go in the west. Whilst I think this is a the best place for discussing Go positions with the diagram support (and I market this forum and hope it grows), we are a relatively small community there are many other fora for discussion about Go and related events such as facebook, twitter, national rooms on KGS (Matesuz has a lot of support in the Polish room), reddit, national forums and mailing lists and others I'm not even aware of.

With regards to Bantari's criticism of the EGC not having an official channel to spread the news or an updated website with pictures and results and what not, they did and it was http://www.egc2015.cz/. Whilst I don't think some EGC official posted that link here (and that would have been a good idea, maybe I will next time, like I did for the WAGC) it's not hard to find with google or your search engine of choice. Lukas Podpera, a Czech go player invited me to like their facebook page, which had updates. They got articles in Czech newspapers (pictures on facebook) and had a spot on the #1 TV channel in Czechia. Let's see if that translates to new people going to Czech Go clubs. Mateusz Surma made a recent facebook post about how, after talking to the Chinese sponsors at the EGC, had decided to postpone his university studies for a year and go to China to continue his Go studies. It had over 100 likes, the facebook measure of popularity. So just because there wasn't much talk about the EGC here (other than post-hoc complaining which we excel at) doesn't mean there wasn't in other places.

[Uberdude]

In order to remedy the lack of discussions about the EGC/Mateusz Surma I will post a link to his game against Cristian Pop 7d which I enjoyed. Things didn't seem to be going well for Mateusz but when Cristian played his ill-timed L2 chaos broke out and Mateusz managed the craziness well (as he tends to) and come out on top. http://egc2015.cz/game/1281

On the other hand his efforts to complicate a bad position were calmly and coolly rebuffed by Wang Zheming 3p, the Chinese pro who swept the tournament: http://egc2015.cz/game/1491

[RBerenguel]

It seems to me some people on L19 have a self-important view of this forum as being the #1 place for Go in the west. Whilst I think this is a the best place for discussing Go positions with the diagram support (and I market this forum and hope it grows), we are a relatively small community there are many other fora for discussion about Go and related events such as facebook, twitter, national rooms on KGS (Matesuz has a lot of support in the Polish room), reddit, national forums and mailing lists and others I'm not even aware of.

With regards to Bantari's criticism of the EGC not having an official channel to spread the news or an updated website with pictures and results and what not, they did and it was http://www.egc2015.cz/. Whilst I don't think some EGC official posted that link here (and that would have been a good idea, maybe I will next time, like I did for the WAGC) it's not hard to find with google or your search engine of choice. Lukas Podpera, a Czech go player invited me to like their facebook page, which had updates. They got articles in Czech newspapers (pictures on facebook) and had a spot on the #1 TV channel in Czechia. Let's see if that translates to new people going to Czech Go clubs. Mateusz Surma made a recent facebook post about how, after talking to the Chinese sponsors at the EGC, had decided to postpone his university studies for a year and go to China to continue his Go studies. It had over 100 likes, the facebook measure of popularity. So just because there wasn't much talk about the EGC here (other than post-hoc complaining which we excel at) doesn't mean there wasn't in other places.

I found much quicker, better information about the Backgammon World Championship, without even having to know (which I didn't) it was going on. There were quite a few posts on reddit (which has less than 10% of the active users than r/baduk has) about live streaming of the games, there were links on the main discussion forums, they had an impressive Facebook page which was easy to find and constantly updated (with links to the live streams) than about the EGC or the AGAC. I only knew the dates of the EGC because I knew it was right after the NGA Summer Camp

[DrStraw]

I have commented before on the still birth of pro go in the West but I feel the comments are worth repeating even though I am no expert on organising anything. What I can do is look at how things have been done elsewhere, draw some conclusions and invite further comment.
...

Extremely well said!

[Uberdude]

I found much quicker, better information about the Backgammon World Championship, without even having to know (which I didn't) it was going on. There were quite a few posts on reddit (which has less than 10% of the active users than r/baduk has) about live streaming of the games, there were links on the main discussion forums, they had an impressive Facebook page which was easy to find and constantly updated (with links to the live streams) than about the EGC or the AGAC. I only knew the dates of the EGC because I knew it was right after the NGA Summer Camp

Really? I couldn't find the results or game files on their website, though I did see something saying results are on their facebook page (and clicking the picture link opened a broken lightbox viewer). But that required lots of scrolling so I didn't bother, though I did see somebody had posted a comment asking for the game record of the final and someone else gave it as a txt file. On the EGC page on the other hand the Results tab is easy to find, has a nice tournament list viewer, and even has an online sgf replayer. Though both seemed to have live streams. Their facebook stream had more pictures. But I was surprised to see it hosted in Monte Carlo, won't the cost of hotels there reduce attendance of low-level amateurs? But then the €1000 entry fee for the championship flight and cocktail parties also makes me think it is a rather more professional and fancy event than the EGC which has hundred of poor/weak amateurs (how many entrants for the backgammon?). So rather than comparing it to the EGC perhaps it should be compared to say the finals of the Ing cup. (Asian tournaments typically have fancy banquets with players in suits too).

[RBerenguel]

I found much quicker, better information about the Backgammon World Championship, without even having to know (which I didn't) it was going on. There were quite a few posts on reddit (which has less than 10% of the active users than r/baduk has) about live streaming of the games, there were links on the main discussion forums, they had an impressive Facebook page which was easy to find and constantly updated (with links to the live streams) than about the EGC or the AGAC. I only knew the dates of the EGC because I knew it was right after the NGA Summer Camp

Really? I couldn't find the results or game files on their website, though I did see something saying results are on their facebook page (and clicking the picture link opened a broken lightbox viewer). But that required lots of scrolling so I didn't bother, though I did see somebody had posted a comment asking for the game record of the final and someone else gave it as a txt file. On the EGC page on the other hand the Results tab is easy to find, has a nice tournament list viewer, and even has an online sgf replayer. Though both seemed to have live streams. Their facebook stream had more pictures. But I was surprised to see it hosted in Monte Carlo, won't the cost of hotels there reduce attendance of low-level amateurs? But then the €1000 entry fee for the championship flight and cocktail parties also makes me think it is a rather more professional and fancy event than the EGC which has hundred of poor/weak amateurs (how many entrants for the backgammon?). So rather than comparing it to the EGC perhaps it should be compared to say the finals of the Ing cup. (Asian tournaments typically have fancy banquets with players in suits too).

The World Championship (main tier) is not for low amateurs (although there are side tournaments, backgammon has classes, unlike go which "just" buckets everyone together and stirs with McMahon,) so the entry fee is what is (actually, top backgammon players get enough money for that, even if stretching it a little.) There have been complaints about not having the brackets, but there was a live posting of results on their Facebook page, so as soon as a game was over you knew who had won it.

All games (of the main tier) are available now after transcribing, posted in the largest BG forum (they are txt files): http://www.bgonline.org/forums/webbbs_c ... ead=182154

The EGC has a very nice website, and has the records for most games. I like that, but as far as news was concerned, it was indeed very little diffusion. There was constant mention of Monte Carlo in bgonline, dailygammon, reddit and I bet a lot other backgammon resources I don't check. There was almost no mention of the EGC in reddit (well, as a moderator I could have helped with this, but it's not like there was a lot to link to), and very little of the AGAC. And we know how the coverage here was, for both. If it wasn't for Robert's posts we'd know almost nothing about how it was without being there.

I wasn't even aware the EGC15 had a Facebook page: they used a quite invisible text link and no standard icons for it. Knowing it now is useless.

[Calvin Clark]

I'm not sure why more attendees from the U.S. Go Congress aren't posting here. I can only speak for myself. For me:

1. I was there, and when I'm at Go Congress, I like to unplug a bit. I don't tend to check e-mail, surf the internet, read news or watch news. I even missed the Republican debate. (I read the transcript later, and from what I can tell from the text, it is just as well that I missed it live.)
2. I'm not a journalist. I'm too lazy to check facts or get nice pictures of interesting people and places, or provide the most entertaining write-ups.
3. I'm an introvert, so I'm not necessarily doing all the cool things like getting drunk with the visiting pros.
4. I'm not very strong. The only time I see the inside of the strong player's room is when I volunteer to record games.
5. I lost most of my games, so I wasn't exactly in the "sharing" mood.

That being said, this was my 11th U.S. Go Congress and I'd be happy to summarize my experiences and compare this U.S. Congress to others. (I think this one was quite good.) Unfortunately, I've never been to the EGC, so I can't say much about that.

Let me know if there is interest. Like this post or PM me.

[oren]

What gives?

Do you subscribe to the AGA e-journal?

If not, that is probably the first stop that should be made. usgo.org was also updated regularly.

[seigenblues]

re: Bantari. For the USGC, here on L19 we posted announcements, a "who's going" thread (which was largely ignored), the video broadcast schedule w/ links to the channel, etc. Most were in the AGA subform -- do you visit it?

We also posted on reddit, facebook, G+, twitter, etc., as well as announcements on KGS and OGS, -- all of which had greater response than here. All nine of our videos of the US Open Masters board one have over 1500 views, about half over 2000, with an average watch time of nearly half an hour (which is phenomenal, for video). So, clearly we're reaching *some* audience. I'd've liked those numbers to be bigger, so i'm all ears for what we could've done better -- but it's not true that we didn't do "basic marketing"

Lastly, the AGA E-Journal -- still free -- automatically cross posts to facebook and G+, and posted daily updates. Maybe we should set it up to cross post here? AFAIK, there's nothing like it in Europe, and before you volunteer, let me assure you that it is a *lot* of work.

[Inkwolf]

I wasn't sure whether I should post my pictures, since it seemed like nobody else was. (Also, during the conference I was too tired and busy to do more than post them on Facebook for my friends.)

Never even saw the 'who's going' thread. I must have missed it on my usual new posts search.

EDIT: In fact, there is not a Who's Going thread for 2015, as far as I can see....

[Bantari]

re: Bantari. For the USGC, here on L19 we posted announcements, a "who's going" thread (which was largely ignored), the video broadcast schedule w/ links to the channel, etc. Most were in the AGA subform -- do you visit it?

We also posted on reddit, facebook, G+, twitter, etc., as well as announcements on KGS and OGS, -- all of which had greater response than here. All nine of our videos of the US Open Masters board one have over 1500 views, about half over 2000, with an average watch time of nearly half an hour (which is phenomenal, for video). So, clearly we're reaching *some* audience. I'd've liked those numbers to be bigger, so i'm all ears for what we could've done better -- but it's not true that we didn't do "basic marketing"

Lastly, the AGA E-Journal -- still free -- automatically cross posts to facebook and G+, and posted daily updates. Maybe we should set it up to cross post here? AFAIK, there's nothing like it in Europe, and before you volunteer, let me assure you that it is a *lot* of work.

Hi. Yes, I have seen all that, except twitter etc.
Maybe my expectations are just too high.