PlaySlow

[PlaySlow]

Thanks for all comments ed:)
Latest updates on my development; (*actively working)
*Tesuji - Davies 143/198
Encyclopedia Of Life And Death - 900 Elementary Problems 220/900
Mastering the Basics - Vol.1 - 501 Opening Problems 84/501
*Shape Up 103/174 (I picked it up following Charles Matthews' recommendation)

[PlaySlow]

By the way, 2 of my games are commented by Shawn Ray!
https://youtu.be/ShrNHxQn0GI
https://youtu.be/bOtRqza0Zb4

[PlaySlow]

Game was played on KGS! I was black and missed a couple of good opportunities i think. He could have also killed me at the bottom, but he missed it due to byo yomi i guess..

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6316

[PlaySlow]

I have a question about low chinese fuseki 4 4 approach. In his book Kato Masao suggests that answering a white approach to 4 4 with the joseki below is the right approach. But the dan players i have asked at KGS say shoulder hit at 16-10 is too powerful so i shouldnt play this joseki.
What do you think about that?

[daal]

I'll go out on a limb and contradict the dans. In my database, the overwhelming majority of pros do not pincer the o17 approach stone at m17, but rather simply jump to q14. The formation you (and Kato Masao) show appears very rarely in pro games, and when it does, the shoulder hit at q10 is practically never played. This confirms my sense that the shoulder hit is not something to worry about. The top right seems strong enough, so I would extend to q9 and expect to take some profit on the bottom right.

[John Fairbairn]

The item quoted from Kato's book seems odd because that position has never appeared in a pro game.

In fact the Black pincer is very rare - only 4 games.

[EdLee]

But the dan players i have asked at KGS say...

Hi PlaySlow,

Some food for thought:

• Pro thinking, assessment, and ideas are always changing. Examples: before and after Go Seigen-Kitani; before and after Go Seigen's new Avalanche turn, etc. I don't know when Mr. Kato wrote that book; if he were still around today, who knows what he would say now about that position.
• At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.
• Do you happen to remember the levels/ranks of the KGS people you chatted with about this ? This example may illustrate how much distance can exist between some amateur dans versus pros.

[Abyssinica]

[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.

Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?

[EdLee]

Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?

Hi Abyssinica,

First, let me say in our recent exchanges, it's not my intention at all to have any unpleasant feelings. So, I'm sorry if I've caused some bad feeling for you.
I almost got into a big(ger) fight with another forum member last night. Very luckily for me, he first reached out to me in PM -- and small world indeed, we just confirmed a few minutes ago that he and I had actually met in person at a Go event a few years ago; and we are having a nice conversation in PM.

Let me think about how to approach your question.

[Abyssinica]

Then let me start by stating that it's my opinion that any sort of mistakes, if recognised as mistakes, shouldn't be ignored or tossed aside simple because it's in a part of the game that doesn't seem to matter much. A lot of people who seem to say things like "fuseki mistakes don't matter because you'll just die in the middle game" miss the point. The point isn't to completely disregard a mistake because it's not seen as as important. The point is to acknowledge it as a mistake, find a better move, and then move on but not spend too much effort on the lesser mistake unless you're doing it for fun.

Some people say a 5 point mistake doesn't matter so early, but I think that if you can recognise the mistake, why not fix it and gain an extra 5 points? (Or just not lose it in the first place)

[daal]

[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.

Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?

Maybe it would be better first to ascertain if a mistake was made or not before we wax theoretical.

[Uberdude]

It's an interesting question. I used to think the shoulder hit was a punishment for black's mistake of the pincer, but now I am not so sure. That's because black's lower right corner gets bigger and stronger in the process. Perhaps white should try to approach that from the outside first and if black answers solidly with the shimari then white can feel happier in playing the shoulder hit as the shimari then becomes a bit inefficient. The problem is white should also defend on the lower side so sente is a problem. So perhaps white does that first and then creates miai of the shoulder hit and the left side.

[Knotwilg]

[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.

Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?

I agree that at our level one should not expect big leaps of improvement from ruling out who's right in opening patterns, the wisdom of old Kato or the high dans at KGS. It's an interesting debate and it may deliver the marginal value which high dans or pros are looking for. At our level, it remains fun to follow the debate or even partake in it but surely it's a waste of time compared to the usual regime of learning the basics, play, tsumego, review ...

In the larger scheme of things, studying go is a waste of time for all of us and we should perhaps just spend our time on what we like to study. But IF improvement is a major driver (and rank a measure of that) than it's safe to say studying Chinese fuseki variations at this point is mostly futile and a recipe for frustration (as rank will not go up due to thàt).

[Abyssinica]

I don't think it's a waste of time. I think it may only be a less efficient use of time. But if you consider studying and thinking about such positions fun, then by all means do it. In my opinion, if you have found any mistake then you shouldn't ignore it and cast it aside off handedly because there are better mistakes to correct.

If you're sitting and pondering whether or not something's a mistake for two hours straight in this stage of the game, then maybe you have a point.

[skydyr]

I don't think it's a waste of time. I think it may only be a less efficient use of time. But if you consider studying and thinking about such positions fun, then by all means do it. In my opinion, if you have found any mistake then you shouldn't ignore it and cast it aside off handedly because there are better mistakes to correct.

If you're sitting and pondering whether or not something's a mistake for two hours straight in this stage of the game, then maybe you have a point.

Well, playing or not playing Q10, for example, is really only a mistake if you and your opponent know how to play from there without bigger mistakes. If you don't know what makes it favourable or unfavourable, and how to use it that way on this board, you may get completely different results from it. The larger mistakes that arise later overshadow the smaller mistake.

Perhaps, it's a mistake because in a particular line stemming from black's strongest resistance, black can force white to collapse. If you can't play out that line yourself without memorising it, there's no point in thinking of it as a mistake. Similarly, if your opponent plays a mistake that can get you a 2 point gain following some particular line, you need to be able to follow through on it or it's not worth thinking of it as a mistake at your level.

You don't have infinite time to learn or play go, so it's worth going for the 90% solution: spend 10% of the time to resolve the 90% of easy mistakes, and leave the edge cases for later since they require much more time to solve things that come up much less frequently.

The other argument would be that as you get stronger, specific errors in joseki, etc. seem to fix themselves without explicitly learning the situation. As an example, take a look at the 6 kyu noseki page on Sensei's library.