reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by Brooklyn »

John Fairbairn wrote:
But the more important point is that each country's system reflects other country-specific cultural or social factors. In the case of Japan, the apparent bias against young players has been compensated for by longevity of one's career. In contrast, just recall how many young shooting stars there have been in Korea and Chinese (who also have seeding arrangements anyway) who have disappeared from the firmament already. You can even argue the oldies are discriminated against in China and Korea. In China you are put out to pasture as a coach. In Korea you get a few scraps from veteran tournaments. In Japan you can keep paying your mortgage.

Of course it may be that the Japanese system has worked against their success at international level, and my reading of the Kisei reforms is that they are more to do with that than with helping ALL young players.


A professional competitive league should have the aim of promoting the best talent. If the old players want to compete at the most prestigious open tournaments, they should do so on their own merit and not with the aid of an infrastructure that strongly favors the status quo.

As a fan, I want to watch the best. I want to see Nadal vs Federer, Spieth vs McIlroy, Barcelona vs Real Madrid, Mayweather vs Pacquiao, etc. These are the matches that are pinnacle of each respective sport because it is a showcase of the best talent there is. A match between the 80th and 100th ranked tennis players in the world that used to be good years ago during their prime is of much less interest.

When I browse recent games on g04g0, I'm looking for Ke Jie, Park Junghwan, Shi Yue and Lee Sedol matches. I'm looking for international tournaments or the Chinese City League. And the recent Awaji Shuzo-Yamada Kimio Kisei League match? Sorry, but I had no interest, Awaji Shuzo's mortgage notwithstanding.

There are various ways that Go Associations can provide for older go players. For example, a pension that provides a small monthly lifetime stipend would be a nice safety net. However, creating a system that favors established (usually older) players at the expense of newcomers that may be more skilled does a huge disservice to the fan base and to the very quality of the professional league itself. That is why Seniors tournaments exist for almost every professional competition - to allow for exposure and participation of the veterans while ensuring that the primary leagues are filled with the most talented players.

The recent changes are a step in the right direction for Japanese Go. I understand change is difficult when there is so much history but everyone has to adapt to the times. Chinese and Korean go are basically starting with a clean slate but Japan has a long legacy that is undoubtedly rich but also is weighing them down to outdated customs. At the risk of offending John Fairbairn, I believe the next change that Japanese Go must implement is to shorten the time limits. 8 hours thinking time make watching live go virtually impossible for me.
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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by Bantari »

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the way I read this new setup (and the old setup as well, by the way) that the system is not skewed to benfit OLD players but towards benefiting players who did well last time around, right? So if a bunch of young players do well and take some top spots, the system will then benefit THEM against the other - some of them OLDER - players.

So the idea is: play well enough, and even if you don't win, next time you might get a perk.

Or am I out to lunch? I have to admit I am not very current on all this anymore...
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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by John Fairbairn »

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the way I read this new setup (and the old setup as well, by the way) that the system is not skewed to benfit OLD players but towards benefiting players who did well last time around, right? So if a bunch of young players do well and take some top spots, the system will then benefit THEM against the other - some of them OLDER - players.


I haven't bothered to read about the new system, but judging by the last reform in 2000 I think it's safe to assume that the whole situation is much more nuanced than you are allowing for.

The 2000 reform was headlined as helping young players meet the overseas challenge, but the following strands were also being woven into the fabric. (1) There was concern that there were far too many 9-dans and the desired pyramid structure had been lost. This was having major repercussions on game fees and seeding. (2) There was a desire to move away from game fees (tied to grades) and to load the money onto prize money (tied to results). This was in turn tied in with an urgent need to reform the pension structure. (3) The sponsor (Yomiuri) was keen to promote go in the Kansai area, which was a hotbed of talent at that time. But the existing tournament structure heavily favoured the Tokyo-based Nihon Ki-in. (4) Obviously all this involved opposition from players who feared the gravy boat might sail past them, so the end result reflected various concessions, compromises and dilutions.

These factors probably all still apply to some degree even now (e.g. players like Iyama and Yamashita are from the Kansai), but we can add (5) the impact of the internet on the Yomiuri readership, and of course the problem of meeting the foreign challenge has not just not gone away but has become much more intense.

The Yomiuri, like other newspapers, doesn't get much out of sponsoring go nowadays (although the emergence of a Japanese superstar could change that). What really drives them now is fear, a director of Mainichi once told me: fear of the negative reaction of readers if they ever abandoned one of the "national" arts.
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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by oren »

I liked Mimura's write up about the results.

http://mimura15.jp/2816.html

I don't see the new system helping old or young very much. Young players had already been able to play their way into the kisei league before fairly early.

After this round the main tournament is
S1 - Yamashita Keigo (37)
S2 - Murakawa Daisuke (24)
A - Kono Rin (34)
B1 - Awaji Shuzo (66)
B2 - Yamada Kimio (43)
C - Kyo Kagen (17)

Awaji Shuzo winning out of a fairly strong group was a surprise.
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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by Bantari »

John Fairbairn wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong here, but the way I read this new setup (and the old setup as well, by the way) that the system is not skewed to benfit OLD players but towards benefiting players who did well last time around, right? So if a bunch of young players do well and take some top spots, the system will then benefit THEM against the other - some of them OLDER - players.


I haven't bothered to read about the new system, but judging by the last reform in 2000 I think it's safe to assume that the whole situation is much more nuanced than you are allowing for.

The 2000 reform was headlined as helping young players meet the overseas challenge, but the following strands were also being woven into the fabric. (1) There was concern that there were far too many 9-dans and the desired pyramid structure had been lost. This was having major repercussions on game fees and seeding. (2) There was a desire to move away from game fees (tied to grades) and to load the money onto prize money (tied to results). This was in turn tied in with an urgent need to reform the pension structure. (3) The sponsor (Yomiuri) was keen to promote go in the Kansai area, which was a hotbed of talent at that time. But the existing tournament structure heavily favoured the Tokyo-based Nihon Ki-in. (4) Obviously all this involved opposition from players who feared the gravy boat might sail past them, so the end result reflected various concessions, compromises and dilutions.

These factors probably all still apply to some degree even now (e.g. players like Iyama and Yamashita are from the Kansai), but we can add (5) the impact of the internet on the Yomiuri readership, and of course the problem of meeting the foreign challenge has not just not gone away but has become much more intense.

The Yomiuri, like other newspapers, doesn't get much out of sponsoring go nowadays (although the emergence of a Japanese superstar could change that). What really drives them now is fear, a director of Mainichi once told me: fear of the negative reaction of readers if they ever abandoned one of the "national" arts.
Interesting. But I was talking more about actual tournament and not so much about fees, pensions, or how to curb the number of 9 dans. Not sure that what I say is completely right, but here is what I was thinking:

Looking at the new Kisei system, I see nothing in it which would benefit old players vs young players. What I do see is that the old system had provisions which benefited those who did well in the last cycle vs those who did not (or did not play.) The new system has slightly less of these benefits, possibly.

But it is all about how you placed last time around, and not about the age. Those two factors might coincide, but they might not.

Even under the old system(s), I remember the many successful attacks of young players on the old titles - the 70s/80s come to mind, when the olys old-timers able to hold against such youngsters Rin and Otake... and then the whirlwind of Kato, Ishida, Takemiya, Cho... And you can see the same thing happening since. They were all strong enohgh to win the leagues, enter tournaments, place well, and be seeded the next year.

I am saying all this because personally - I like the idea that the whole system is slightly "entrenched", and that it is harder to get in than to stay in. This makes getting into the tournament more of a challenge and whoever does is - by definition - more than strong enough to do well in it. I think it allows for upward mobility on one side, for those strong enough, while also providing more stability to the structure and rewards those who do well. To me, this is a whole idea behind "title match" - the old champion vs the new challenger - rather than a round-robin with winner takes title.
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Re: reform of Japanese Kisei tournament

Post by floating »

Looking at term 40 and term 41 seedings, the 41th has more players participating with an extra round on preliminary stage.

On term 40, the prelim was a 4 round single elimination, on term 41 it has 5 rounds.

The players on term 40 who got relegated/demoted (those who lost 3 matches in 5 or less games, 0-3, 1-3 or 2-3) from the c-league, start the term 41 from prelims round 2, thus needing 4 straight wins to get back in c-league.

Also the players who reached the final 4th round on term 40 prelims start the term 41 from prelims round 2. Those on term 40 who lost on round 1,2 or 3, start from prelims round 1.


http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/040.html
http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/kisei/041.html
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