Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

iseijin · Post by **iseijin** » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:16 pm

Hello,

Thanks for any comments.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:19 am

Overall, I felt that your play was solid, maybe too much so.

Comments go up to move 42.

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:00 am

iseijin wrote:Hello,
Thanks for any comments.

and

are too early, because Black becomes solid. Your opponent, however, seems to agree with you in avoiding serious fighting and sharp play generally.

I would say you won because you are a little stronger. (You should have had more trouble in the lower right.)

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:56 am

Regarding the monkey jump of 44, there are two things wrong with it. First is that it is too early and makes your opponent stronger as Charles said, there are other possibilities in black's lower side shape: an invasion (at h3) could still be possible, or something like l4 attach and crosscut, or you might want to reduce from the centre or otherwise have the opportunity to break into the side in later fighting. Second it is locally the wrong technique, better is the f2 attachment, black g2, then e3 f4 g1 etc. This is also a sente endgame sequence that reduces black by the same amount, but your corner ends up 3.5 points bigger than your monkey jump sequence (and 3 points better than the better monkey jump sequence of e1 at f1 which means d1 is a point rather than half a point), and also has more eyeshape. Black's e2 is also a big endgame move with future aims in the corner so it is good to be thinking about this area in the middle-game, but you should reflect carefully on the lost possibilities when playing in this area. Basically if you are ahead and the game is a simple territory game without much scope for future fighting, and neither side has much in the way of centre potential then I would look to play f2 etc sente quite early, otherwise I would tend to hold back on it.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:08 pm

Aside from the repeated mistake of premature monkey jumps, the highlight of the game is probably the "gun eight" seki position both players missed at the end of the game and which would have made a 8 point difference (White still wins).

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GunEight

I've added comments throughout, on top of Joaz's.
Overall, you indeed played solidly to keep an advantage, which is very mature play. There was not much endgame left when the middle game was over. In fact, there never really was middle game fighting. Black was just lullabied into loss.

iseijin · Post by **iseijin** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:59 pm

The joseki in the upper left corner was not good, right? Should I have played c15 instead of f17?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:04 pm

iseijin wrote:The joseki in the upper left corner was not good, right? Should I have played c15 instead of f17?

I wouldn't say that it is 'not good'. It is conservative, old, and very safe. One might even call it timid. But many serious pros played it many times before your grandfather or my grandfather was born.

If you need to play in that general area, F16 is considered a bit more enterprising.

C15 is at least as good as any of the moves discussed so far in this post. It might be best by a very thin margin, but that sublety is beyond players of our strength.

iseijin · Post by **iseijin** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:07 pm

Ok, thanks

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:11 pm

To say much more requires looking at the surrounding board.

I might play F17 myself if white had a strong position on the middle of the left side, and some strength in the middle of the top side.

As it stands, I would seriously consider pincering to extend from the lower left corner.

siowy · Post by **siowy** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:42 am

My thoughts up to move 50. I appreciate stronger players thoughts on my thoughts too.
:w12:

Shape is overconcentrated. Hane Q4 is better.
:w22:

D2 and C9 are already miai, so no need to play here. better to play the widest area, approach at O17.
:w24:

3-3 invasion under star point is usually considered not so good when there are no stones nearby.
:w44:

Too early. First invade, next reduce from the top, last reduce from the bottom.
:w50:

F15 probably better as it builds the top more and encroaches on B's UL territory.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:56 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
iseijin wrote:The joseki in the upper left corner was not good, right? Should I have played c15 instead of f17?

I wouldn't say that it is 'not good'. It is conservative, old, and very safe. One might even call it timid. But many serious pros played it many times before your grandfather or my grandfather was born.

Is this actually true? From his pics I guess Joaz is in his 50s or so, and allowing 25 years a generation his grandfather was born about 105 years ago. That high approach to 3-4 is a relatively modern move, so was this joseki actually seen pre 1910? Game databases tend to be pretty sparse for games that long ago, so not finding it doesn't mean it wasn't played, but are there any instances in GoGoD or other dbs?

Anyway, I prefer c15, or a pincer like d13.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:07 am

Uberdude wrote:That high approach to 3-4 is a relatively modern move, so was this joseki actually seen pre 1910? Game databases tend to be pretty sparse for games that long ago, so not finding it doesn't mean it wasn't played, but are there any instances in GoGoD or other dbs?

I don't know about the one space extension, but can we count this as a high approach to the 3-4?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm22 Year = 1624 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O X X . X . O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , 1 8 . . . , . . . . O , . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . X . . 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here is the SGF file.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:40 am

Bill Spight wrote:
Uberdude wrote:That high approach to 3-4 is a relatively modern move, so was this joseki actually seen pre 1910? Game databases tend to be pretty sparse for games that long ago, so not finding it doesn't mean it wasn't played, but are there any instances in GoGoD or other dbs?

I don't know about the one space extension, but can we count this as a high approach to the 3-4?

Yes, though the presence of the j3 "Chinese style" stone means it's not an approach an empty corner joseki here. I didn't mean to say you'll never find high approaches back then, but wasn't it viewed as not the normal approach so only for some special situations such as this Chinese style shape. These days against a lone 3-4 isn't high-vs low about 50-50. Back then just pulling numbers out of my arse wasn't it more like 5-95 or even less?

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:50 am

People commented W44 is early, but it also is not the [sl=EndgameTesuji4]correct move[/sl] locally.

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Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game

Re: Would be glad about reviews, 6k game