Who stands better in this fuseki?

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:25 am

@Bill: White to play. Where would u play now? Would u strengthen rather the right side or the left side or keep the single black stone attacked?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:08 pm

Pippen wrote:@Bill: White to play. Where would u play now? Would u strengthen rather the right side or the left side or keep the single black stone attacked?

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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The bottom side and right side are both big. Considering Black's overconcentration on the top, I would probably strengthen the right side, because it makes the game somewhat easier. White usually plays to make the game harder for Black, but White already has an edge, IMO.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:49 pm

Black to play. Who is better here and where should Black play?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:06 pm

I'm obviously much weaker than you, but I'd like to take a stab at analyzing the position before the more experienced folks weigh in with their opinions.

The upper right looks like the standard joseki that every kyu knows, and there's nothing about the surrounding stones that would make those moves a poor choice. So I'll call that even.

It's the bottom that looks different - to my eye black looks thin, with weaknesses around H3 and M3. I don't think they are immediately exploitable, but there is the suggestion of much more bottom territory than black can expect to end up with. White, on the other hand looks solid, though the lower left is still vulnerable to attack.

As black I would be torn between between one more move on the bottom to shore up the area there (I'd fear white enclosing the lower left in sente, for example) versus taking a big point on the left side. Personally, I'd probably play on the bottom - it looks like white could get a lot of profit there otherwise. A purely defensive move doesn't seem consistent with black's style of play, though, so perhaps invading the lower left corner at the C3 and hoping that the black stones on the bottom mitigate the influence white will gain?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:59 am

OK, I'll bite.

The position looks about even to me. Black has a bit more influence, but is thin.

There are a number of good places to play. Kyu players should probably pick one of them at random, as a learning opportunity.

Edit: I don't think that invading the bottom left corner is one of them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . b . X . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I lean towards

. If White responds with

, I don't much care about the invasion at "b". I might try "a" if I'm feeling frisky.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:11 pm

Bill Spight wrote:
Edit: I don't think that invading the bottom left corner is one of them.

It's not where I'd usually play, and after I actually played the position out I realized it didn't look very good for black. Of course, I wouldn't (intentionally) end up in that position as black - I have trouble getting profit out of thin positions. Handling loosely connected stones without letting the opponent profit too much from attack is something I very much admire in stronger players.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:28 pm

jeromie wrote:Of course, I wouldn't (intentionally) end up in that position as black - I have trouble getting profit out of thin positions. Handling loosely connected stones without letting the opponent profit too much from attack is something I very much admire in stronger players.

To learn how to do that, you need to try making thin positions.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:49 pm

Black to play. I wonder especially if Black should invade the right low white corner or play from distance, giving white the corner, but having sente and some big move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:14 pm

I'd be tempted to play a sealing move on the bottom left group. White's left with a decent corner and it doesn't feel like all that much else.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:48 pm

Pippen wrote:Black to play. I wonder especially if Black should invade the right low white corner or play from distance, giving white the corner, but having sente and some big move...

White has played two terribly submissive plays in the lower left, securing no more than 20 points in the process. I rather like skydyr's idea of a sealing move. Not because it seals White in but because it expands the left while loosely connecting the left-side stone to the strong group at the bottom. I like one of the 'a' points. The knight's move at 'b' is just an invitation to White to push and cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:16 am

I agree with you guys, but if you would have to play on the right side? Where would it be?

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:22 am

Maybe the star point, or the high 2-space backside approach?

It's hard for me to think about because my eye keeps looking left. Honestly, it's very dependent on what's going on on the left side, but the left side seal is so demanding. If there were a different position that made the left less urgent, one of the above might be okay, but that might change other things about the position too. It's a bit like asking 'if white had a strong group where black has a moyo now, where would you play?' It's a whole 'nother game.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:13 am

Ok, let me give u two concrete examples, Black to play in every case but where and is it an even game in either diagram so far?

No. 1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

No. 2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Jhyn · Post by **Jhyn** » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:37 am

In both cases I would say the result is equal, at least I would be satisfied playing both sides.

In the first I would play C14 postponing an invasion of the right.
In the second I would play Q10.

Pippen · Post by **Pippen** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:10 pm

Black just played the marked stone. IMO White can either kill the lower right group with T2, but then Black's K16 kills its whole upper group or White plays K16 itself and lives, but Black can play T2 and make the group there seki. Am I right (and White should play K16 now)?

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