What's it like reading out a ladder?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:16 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B A long ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is something that has puzzled me for a long time. In Lessons In The Fundamentals Of Go, Kageyama recommends reading out ladders, and not taking shortcuts. I have taken the advice to heart, but find it hard to this day.

One thing that puzzles me is what it's like reading out a ladder. Do you see the stones on the board? Or do you look at spots on the board with a sort of "White, Black, White, Black, White, Black..." series in your head? Or something different?

I find that I can only see the stones for very short ladders, after which they get fuzzy. Below you'll see my limit, hidden so that you can think about it yourself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B A long ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I see the stones to

or

almost instantaneously, and after that point, I start slowing down and alternating, with no real picture in my head.

As a result, I find long ladders, spiral ladders and so on extremely hard and slow to read. I'm especially prone to having to start over when I reach a bend or an opposing stone. Even if I haven't misplaced my series of moves, which is easy to do when you're just moving your eyes and saying "White, Black...", I may not have a clear picture of which spaces are liberties.

Am I doing this wrong? What it is like when you read a ladder? Did you have to overcome the problems I'm describing, and if so, how did you do it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X | $$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X | $$ | X O . . . . . . . . . O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . . . . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:10 am

You only need to read few moves to try to visualise the two diagonal lines. If the potential breaker stone is inside the two diagonal lines or just touching the lines from outside as in your example, then the ladder will fail.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A long ladder $$ {AR D3 Q15} $$ {AR C5 O17} $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:49 am

hyperpape wrote:
$$B A long ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B A long ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is something that has puzzled me for a long time. In Lessons In The Fundamentals Of Go, Kageyama recommends reading out ladders, and not taking shortcuts. I have taken the advice to heart, but find it hard to this day.

Did Kageyama say it was going to be easy?

I take this kind of advice not to be about reading ladders per se, but about developing your visualization skills.

One thing that puzzles me is what it's like reading out a ladder. Do you see the stones on the board?

Seldom, without peyote.

Or do you look at spots on the board with a sort of "White, Black, White, Black, White, Black..." series in your head?

Gack!

Or something different?

I cheat. Life is short.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B A shorter ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 3 W . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I often use macelee's trick of projecting the ladder across the board. Sometimes, like here, I use the trick of projecting the

stone across the board, to the phantom

stone. (I don't actually read the ladder out to

or beyond. It's something I know.)

I find that I can only see the stones for very short ladders, after which they get fuzzy.

Then, as a visualization exercise, may I suggest reading to that limit, and work on clarifying the fuzzy image. I am assuming, OC, that the point is to improve your visualization, not necessarily to read the ladder out.

As a result, I find long ladders, spiral ladders and so on extremely hard and slow to read. I'm especially prone to having to start over when I reach a bend or an opposing stone. Even if I haven't misplaced my series of moves, which is easy to do when you're just moving your eyes and saying "White, Black...", I may not have a clear picture of which spaces are liberties.

You have identified the hard parts.

Am I doing this wrong?

Everybody faces those hard parts. Even pros occasionally misread ladders. I think that John Tromp showed that the intrinsic difficulty of reading ladders is on the same order as solving go.

Moi, I have worked a bit on the hard parts, otherwise using macelee's projection trick. As a result, when I was reading a recent commentary my spidey sense tingled and I thought, That stone doesn't look like a ladder breaker to me. Then I used the projection trick and read out the hard part. It was pretty easy at that point. Here is my post about that.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 60#p196360

In the spirit of things, I thought I would try my hand at the following problem, even though there are a number of hard parts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X | $$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X | $$ | X O . . . . . . . . . O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . . . . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

First, I used the projection trick, reaching the first hard part.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X | $$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X | $$ | X O . . . . . . . . B O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X | $$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

BTW, I did not actually visualize the

stones, but I know that they are there, and I can reconstruct them if need be.

I noticed that White had two liberties. Maybe I should try something else?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O O . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | X . . , . . O . X , . . X | $$ | X O . . . X O X . . . O X | $$ | X O . . . . . . . . W O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . B W B X | $$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

Three liberties! That's even worse.

Then I remembered that it was Black's turn at the previous point. So we're still OK.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O O . X B O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . # O W O W B . | $$ | X . . , . . O W X B W W X | $$ | X O . . . X O X . . 1 O X | $$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X | $$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

quickly followed, leading to this position with White to play. I made a quick check that the

stone had enough liberties, then continued on.

Edit: Why did I check for liberties? Obviously in some sense I foresaw that it would need a liberty. So I was looking ahead in a way, but I formed no conscious image. The unconscious is a wonderful thing!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Can Black capture? $$ --------------------------- $$ | . . . X X . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . B O O B X B O O X . . | $$ | . B W W W W # O W O W B . | $$ | X W W B B W O W X B W W X | $$ | X O B . . X O X . . B O X | $$ | X O . . . . B . . . B O X | $$ | X . . . . . , . . B W W X | $$ | . . . . . . . . B . . B . | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . B . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------[/go]

Wait! Where have we seen this shape before? On the other side. Only now there are no hard parts left. We're done.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:57 am

For long ladders I start with imaginating only the inner stones, which is rather easy (even with my limited capacity

) . Only when they get close to other stones I start also adding the surrounding stones in my imagination. In your example I "see" it like follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B O13 gets in atari, and the ladder is broken for b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Just mentally drawing diagonal lines might not always work corectly as can be seen by comparing the following examples.

Variation #1:

Variation #2:

In both cases there is a white stone "within the diagonals", however only one of these works for w, the other for b, which can be easily identified by reading out the few steps close to the other stones.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:11 am

Schawipp, would you say you can read ladders quickly or slowly, and how hard do you find it?

Edit: this question really goes for anyone who answers.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:18 am

I visualize actual stones, but the visualization moves along as i read up the ladder. I stop visualizing the bottom of the ladder as i go.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:31 am

the two diagonal lines

The whole point of Kageyama's advice is to avoid shortcuts and actually do the work of reading it out, because the lines only work if the path is mostly unobstructed; but in reality, the other end can be messy, and the ladder can change directions (more than once), with more complications (snapbacks, etc.).

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:40 am

hyperpape wrote:Schawipp, would you say you can read ladders quickly or slowly, and how hard do you find it?

I think reading out ladders is comparably easy as it's mostly a one-way road. Of course I would not call it really "easy", however in other life&death situations there are usually many different variations at each move which are easy to miss. In the book "The treasure chest enigma" from Nakayama (or "Die Schatztruhe" in german language) there are some more complicated examples, which are funny and where I practiced a bit on some time ago. At least I can say that in that few games in the past, where a little more complicated ladder was "disputed" I was usually on the winning side (and I'm pretty sure - now that I wrote it here - the opposite will happen in one of my next games...

).

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:08 pm

And now to make the entire readership faint in horror:

When I have to read out a ladder when I'm playing on a server, I point at the board with my finger and follow the ladder.

(Seriously.)

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:15 pm

schawipp wrote: Variation #2:
$$B A long ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B A long ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In both cases there is a white stone "within the diagonals", however only one of these works for w, the other for b, which can be easily identified by reading out the few steps close to the other stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B A very short ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O W B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My projection trick makes it easy.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:45 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Did Kageyama say it was going to be easy?

I take this kind of advice not to be about reading ladders per se, but about developing your visualization skills.

Interesting. I think ladders may be my bugbear. I can play through a few dozen moves from a game in my head if I've spent enough time thinking about them. I can see many joseki too. Life and death, I'm not particularly good at, but I think I struggle with ladders even more. In games, when a ladder doesn't obviously work, I'm slow to figure it out.

I don't need it to be easy. But I think I've seen zero improvement. I think 5 stones in the ladder was what I could straightforwardly read when I read that passage, and it's still there.

There's also an element of curiousity. I wonder how other people experience the process (assuming that they don't just cheat).

Bill Spight wrote:
Or do you look at spots on the board with a sort of "White, Black, White, Black, White, Black..." series in your head?
Gack!

That's me

Bill Spight wrote:
I find that I can only see the stones for very short ladders, after which they get fuzzy.
Then, as a visualization exercise, may I suggest reading to that limit, and work on clarifying the fuzzy image. I am assuming, OC, that the point is to improve your visualization, not necessarily to read the ladder out.

I don't know what the point is. Kageyama says it's a good idea...

I'll try focusing on stretching myself on simple (but long) ladders for a bit.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:51 pm

I'm not really able to visualize the stones, but instead go "black" "white". I am able to recall which intersections are "black" or "white" for a limited segment as I go, and that's what I use to read out more interesting interruptions along the way.

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:21 pm

macelee wrote:You only need to read few moves to try to visualise the two diagonal lines. If the potential breaker stone is inside the two diagonal lines or just touching the lines from outside as in your example, then the ladder will fail.

$$Bc A long ladder
$$ {AR D3 Q15}
$$ {AR C5 O17}
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc A long ladder $$ {AR D3 Q15} $$ {AR C5 O17} $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

haha... of course it also helps if you keep the lines on their proper course

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc A long ladder $$ {AR D3 Q15} $$ {AR C5 P17} $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:50 pm

hyperpape,
I think, with more practice, you'll get it.

A book recommendation, if I may: http://www.amazon.co.jp/マイコミ囲碁ブックス-囲碁の力 ... 4839935912

The book isn't all about ladders, but the first chapter is. The problems increase in difficulty, so you may get stuck at some time. But if you keep at it, I think you will break through.

Japanese ability is also not necessary for the problems in the book.

Post by **Solomon** » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:27 pm

The way I read ladders is by only focusing on the inner group mentally until it reaches near the critical area, so something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Not actually 1, 3,... in my head; just making the diagram work correctly. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . 3 5 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then once it's near the potential ladder breaker, I start playing out the outer group to see if it contacts the ladder breaker in any way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B O O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O B . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O B . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . B 2 4 5 W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B O O 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O B . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O B . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hope this helps!

Life In 19x19

What's it like reading out a ladder?

What's it like reading out a ladder?

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Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?

Re: What's it like reading out a ladder?