schawipps messy games

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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

As Go is rather complex it sometimes happens to me that I inadvertently kill a larger group without noticing (well, I notice after my opponent resigns). This recent IGS game (I'm playing as black) is my most extreme example of inadvertently killing a group so far. I wish I would be able to plan such things in advance...



If you have similar examples we could make a fun thread out of it (if it doesn't exist yet)... ;-)
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

I played a few more IGS games. In the first game, I should have won clearly, however the opponent kept playing futile moves in my territory. Suddenly my tablet indicated that it urgently needs electrical power. While plugging in the power chord - and while being in a stupid atari - I accidentally touched the screen at the border. As my opponent doesn't accept undo, I resigned, because I was unnerved about my misclick - only to see later that I was still leading. Thus, I have to work on my mental coolness (and on my laziness in counting, too) ...


The other game was also fighting oriented. In a decisive moment I made some bad shape which let my opponent escape with a double-atari. There are also plenty of other mistakes on both sides. Any comments and suggestions on especially this game are highly appreciated.



BTW - My IGS nickname is "andre8s", i.e. I'm white in the first game and black in the second.
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skydyr
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by skydyr »

Some comments:


It's all about attacking weak groups.
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

Thank you @skydyr for your interesting comments. It's always overwhelming how many more mistakes can be found. To your questions at move :b65:

- My goal was to survive and prevent white from getting a big right side.
- Yes, if I attacked the lower w group instead, the lower side would have at least similar size as if w catches the R9 stone on large scale. In case of the lower right w side there would be even further aji possible to exploit later.

Anyway, I need to adjust my antenna with respect to aji and weak groups (and also my reading lacks accuracy). I guess - besides more tsumego and playing games - there is no short cut ;-)
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

After >two years, I still haven't made it over Wbaduk's "DDK barrier" :mrgreen:

Let's re-invoke this thread with another messy game (I am black, maybe I should have started this thread with another title, now it is destiny...). In the final result, our mutual blunders have neutralized themselves; however after all, basic tactics and shapes still seem the most urgent fields to work on.

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skydyr
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by skydyr »

schawipp wrote:After >two years, I still haven't made it over Wbaduk's "DDK barrier" :mrgreen:

Let's re-invoke this thread with another messy game (I am black, maybe I should have started this thread with another title, now it is destiny...). In the final result, our mutual blunders have neutralized themselves; however after all, basic tactics and shapes still seem the most urgent fields to work on.



At :b13: tenuki is a mistake. White's :w12: is a bit slack, as white should have hane'd underneath most likely. Hane at O17 is great, and continuing at O16 is good too. When you take gote in the upper left and white gets to come back here to a situation where black likely should have finished in sente, things look favourable for white.

As a second note, by keeping white low in the upper right, black would have made white's topside potential smaller, so taking the upper left corner wouldn't be that big compared to making the left small.
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

Quite some time has passed but not posting here doesn't mean that I've abandoned playing ;-). Recently I played a funny game in a rated "real-life" tournament, whereof the first 10 moves were very similar as in the Malkovitch game between moyoaji and me (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11181 except white's move :w4: was on hoshi in the actual game instead 4/3 in the Malkovitch game). On move :b11: I "deviated" into a kind of symmetry variation, where both sides build huge moyos. I finally lost the game by 9 points due to a stupid blunder worth about 10 points but nevertheless found the initial game position and center fighting quite funny. I'm still completely lost about how to deal with such huge moyos and would appreciate any comment (game shown till move 97).



Edit: Taking the m5 stones was gote, so I cannot be completely sure, what he could have gotten instead and if that was the main cause for the game result.
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skydyr
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by skydyr »

A few thoughts:

:b19: feels slow to me. I think black should have kept expanding the moyo to limit white's potential. The cap isn't a huge worry for the time being. :b21: feels a bit like an overplay, also, and should be more distant or expanding the moyo/reducing white from the other side maybe.

For :b29: maybe cut on the other side?

I understand why you played :b35:, but it feels like it puts black a move behind locally. Once white gets that solid connection, it's almost impossible to attack him, while black's stones are cut off.

At :w40:, white can't stop black from connecting, so keeping sente is best.

The empty triangle at :b51: is painful. Perhaps the earlier connection should have been at K5 or a trumpet connection?

:b69: is big, but it's endgame. Better to protect on the right where white's wall is aiming. If white connects those two stones, black's group can still atari it's way to connection, so there's no real threat.

Once white settles his group on the right side, white's strategy has been pretty successful. The bottom half of black's moyo is gone without much to show for it.

For :b89:, maybe attach underneath white's side star point stone?

edit:
It's a very different game, but perhaps after :w8: you should approach white's upper left as in the kobayashi opening, to break up white's moyo potential while leaving black some.
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by Charles Matthews »

schawipp wrote:I'm still completely lost about how to deal with such huge moyos and would appreciate any comment (game shown till move 97).




You made some heavy plays. It would be better to cut those out of your game.

Now, in the interchanges of the fighting no doubt things happened to obscure that aspect of the game. But kyu players need to play more lightly, really without exception.

At :b21:, the game is there to be won or lost. You choose to reduce, rather than invade. This must be valid. Some points, though. A classic reduction play probably goes no deeper than J10. (What?) A Black answer at H11 should be satisfactory - passive. So you need to think a bit about options in the top left, first. The D15 stone is designed for large-scale play. If you play at C17, you should get something in this area. What you don't want to do is kill off that fledgling group by premature plays in the centre.

Your play at K12 doesn't do that, too obviously, but :b23: was heavy. If you can't afford to play K10, then there is a fighting problem: you are saying that the K12 stone must be saved, whatever. Why, though? You can't be attacking White's group at the top.

So :w24: shows quite good perception: up to :b31: is slow-moving for Black. I guess :w32: should be K9, but White gets fancy. Black surely should play at J9 before F12. :w38: atari at N12 and then :w40: at L14 would make more sense. Then Black's position would be troubling.

So the game meanders on.
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

Wow, thank you Charles and skydyr for the very interesting and helpful comments!

Charles Matthews wrote:You made some heavy plays. It would be better to cut those out of your game.
That's probably one of my biggest weaknesses, and they always tend to happen when I reply "automatically" by gut feeling rather than thinking. For example, while your arguing sounds quite convincing for me in hindsight, during play I didn't even think of treating K12 lightly.

Charles Matthews wrote:Black surely should play at J9 before F12. :w38: atari at N12 and then :w40: at L14 would make more sense. Then Black's position would be troubling.
Yep - strategic misjudgements often get "compensated" by basic tactical mistakes. This often makes it difficult to clearly identify the most relevant strategic issues.

@skydyr: Your comment about :b69: is very interesting. For some reason I associated the w stones with more or less my upper right moyo. So I thought, by cutting at :b69: I get a large area containing a few w stones. I didn't recognize that - even if the w stones get connected, they couldn't do much damage to that area.
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skydyr
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by skydyr »

schawipp wrote:@skydyr: Your comment about :b69: is very interesting. For some reason I associated the w stones with more or less my upper right moyo. So I thought, by cutting at :b69: I get a large area containing a few w stones. I didn't recognize that - even if the w stones get connected, they couldn't do much damage to that area.


I'm not saying it won't do damage to the area, but rather that the lower right is larger and involves the status of groups, whereas the area of the game move does not.
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

From October 2013:
schawipp wrote:... I would like to set my personal next goal to becoming sdk on wbaduk (which seems more or less equivalent to breaking the 5k barrier on KGS if I understood the rank comparison tables correctly...).
Just about 2.5 years later it happened ;-). Setting 9k as a goal may sound rather lame but at least for me on "Korea 1" it was a tough ride. Actually 9k on wbaduk seems equivalent to getting 3k on kgs. Strange enough, people keep saying that dan ranks on wbaduk are rather weak. According to this, there must be some kind of rating plateau on wbaduk within the SDK range. Anyway, I'll keep you updated from time to time.

For the notes the game that pushed me back from 10k to 9k.
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by Bill Spight »

Congratulations! :D :clap: :clap: :clap: :D
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Visualize whirled peas.

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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

In a late and sloppy game, I just encountered a funny ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc w to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O X X X O . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O O O X O . O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . B O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | X . X O . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . O O . X O O . . X . X . |
$$ | X . . X O O . X O O O X O O O X X . X |
$$ | . X X X X O . X X O X X X X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . X . . X O O . O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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schawipp
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Re: schawipps messy games

Post by schawipp »

In a recent league game I performed rather badly. I think I could identify a couple of mistakes and would appreciate more comments or corrections. Time control was 1 hour main time plus 5 min / 15 stones byoyomi. Thank you in advance for any input.

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