61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll take third line territory here. I'm starting to worry about him getting a moyo.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
For either :b2: I will respond with :w3: !
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . 2 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 1 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think he will ignore these forcing moves! If I can capture these two stones, I have a strong group sitting in front of his territory, which will make it much harder for him to convert it all into points!
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . 1 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I really wanted this point, but didn't want to get sealed in on the top left to get it.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Zwergesel:

OT, but why do you use an exclamation mark at the end of all your sentences?

Not for players:
The :w46: :b47: exchange feels like complete aji keshi to me. Zwergesel should reject it.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Dusk Eagle wrote:Zwergesel:

OT, but why do you use an exclamation mark at the end of all your sentences?

"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head." -Terry Pratchett
:lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope this is a good move. It looks good on paper! Of course there's space to invade, but if he comes in I should be able to get profit out of chasing him and there's a chance that I might even kill him!!
What bothers me more is that I leave a cut at L13 with this tenuki and if he chooses to cut now, the fighting will become ugly!!!
Here's what I see:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 4 . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 1 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 7 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . 9 8 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looks horrible, but he's got nowhere to run, so I should be able to kill him before he can catch any of my stones!!!! I can't read it all though, so it's risky!!!!!
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . 1 O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When trying to destroy a moyo, take a friend.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Oh well, here we go. :-? I will take some time on the next move to make sure I can win this fight.
If not there's the possibility to just grab territory in the lower left and treat these stones as aji.
@DuskEagle: Just for you I didn't use exclamation marks this time. :D
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

@Zwergesel
Yes!! Thank you!!!
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I'm going to sacrifice the two stones. The fight has too many variations and I get many cutting points. It's risky.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O 4 O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 7 6 O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . 5 2 B O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . a 3 1 b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This creates two new cutting points at 'a' and 'b', but 'a' is easier to defend and if he cuts at 'b' I can sacrifice some more. :)
Note that if he plays :b4: at :w5: then :w5: at :w7: prevents the capture and we have a capturing race again. He'd be in a much weaker position though and I don't think he can win this race.

Hmm, I still have the option to fight though, I'm going to count again and decide based on that.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . 1 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't like the atari here for white. It's mostly a feel thing, but now he's induced me to play a sente move that I would have played anyway.

What I'm going for here is to get enough sente moves against his floating group to live in the middle.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O 2 O X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . 3 X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O 1 . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 3 . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . 2 X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From now on, I'm going to overplay ridiculously to see what it takes to start a fight with him. He's been pretty passive the whole game.
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Numsgil
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Numsgil »

Redundant wrote:
From now on, I'm going to overplay ridiculously to see what it takes to start a fight with him. He's been pretty passive the whole game.

Not for players:
Seems like black has enough solid territory at this point that white should be the one picking fights. If black plays solidly from here on out, reducing white's moyo from the bottom, he should be able to win no problem. White's going for a large central moyo, but it's just too hard to defend from leaks.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Shaddy »

Numsgil:
I don't think he cares about that. He just wants a fight.
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Re: 61. Redundant (4k) vs. Zwergesel (3k)

Post by Zwergesel »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm way behind unless I can take all or at least most of the territory in the lower left, so I'm afraid I can't take the time to connect solidly at J14.
If he – again – cuts immediately, I'm planning to do the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . O . X X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . X O , X O O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O X . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 2 1 X . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . 4 O X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 3 O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . W . X . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The two black stones are not easily rescued and I can build a moyo while chasing them.
However, I think he'll just reduce the left now. That way he's probably going to win. I'm not satisfied with my opening in this game. :(
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