17th Nongshim Cup

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:48 am

Thanks for the report, trout. It seems that Lee Sedol and Ke Jie will face each other once again. It should be an exciting match!

"Alpha-dol" (I guess a play on Lee Sedol's name due to his upcoming match against AlphaGo) was quoted, after his match with Iyama Yuta 9d ([1]):

Alpha-dol wrote:커제에게 이길 때는 됐는데 그게 내일인지는 모르겠어요. 커제가 잘 두니까.

"It's come time for me to win against Ke Jie, but I don't know if that will happen or not tomorrow. Because Ke Jie plays well." (His current record against Ke Jie is 2-7, according to the article.)

Whatever the case, let's hope for an exciting final match!

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[1] https://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view ... num=521362

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:52 am

The final game enters small yose now. Look like another comfortable win of Ke Jie, he is so strong.

Lee Sedol tried his best, including a very very deep invasion.

trout · Post by **trout** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:55 am

14th game;
Ke Jie, defeated Lee Sedol by resign.

Players;
Korea:Lee Sedol, Choi Cheolhan, Min Sangyeon, Baek Chanhee, Park Junghwan
China:Ke Jie, Lian Xiao, Wu Guangya, Fan Yunruo, Gu Li
Japan:Iyama Yuuta, Murakawa Daisuke,Ida Atzshi, Ichiriki Ryo, Kono Rin
bold - Remaining players.

Nomgshim cup goes to China!!!!!!!!!!

pookpooi · Post by **pookpooi** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:21 am

Ke Jie is so strong that it's hard to find the upper bound of his strength since there's no such a stronger opponent for him (for now)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:31 am

macelee wrote:The final game enters small yose now. Look like another comfortable win of Ke Jie, he is so strong.

Lee Sedol tried his best, including a very very deep invasion.

I think their record is like 8-2 now, in Ke Jie's favor, so Ke Jie definitely has good record against Sedol. That said, I don't think that the game was one sided the entire time.

In the middle of the game, there was an interesting aji for a capturing race after Lee Sedol played this cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X W . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . X O . X 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O 4 . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Presumably, Ke Jie read out that he had more liberties and the capturing race would be fine, so he extended:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But Lee's next move made it so that the capturing race worked, and black couldn't respond:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . W . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So Ke Jie compromised and cut, allowing white to capture the marked stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . B B 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O B . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I personally think that Lee Sedol played well in this area, because it means that it made Ke Jie's move here a bad move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The game is not bad for Lee Sedol. What happened later in the top right ended up favoring Ke Jie, and he gained a lead. But I don't think that the lead was there for the entire game.

Nonetheless, I agree that Ke Jie is pretty much unstoppable these days. The only reason I comment is that I don't think it was "comfortable" for Ke Jie the entire game.

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:05 pm

First of all let me clarify this: when I said "comfortable win" I meant to say that the difference on board is rather large (Ke Jie was leading about 12 points before komi in the end, which is a rather big margin in pro game.). I did not mean that the game was completely one-sided.

Now some technical analysis:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 0 O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O 7 X O . O a . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X 2 X 9 O . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 6 8 X O . X 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O 4 5 X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can indeed cut black this way (note that :b3:

is the correct answer). However, if white plays this immediately, black could cut at 'a' and capturing race is not good for white (according to some pro analysis).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X 1 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lee Sedol's :w2:

was indeed a very smart move. If black plays the obvious :b3:

, white can then carry out the plan in the previous diagram, and white can run out from 'b' in the previous diagram. So black cannot play :b3:

here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . a 3 . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O b X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . B B 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O B . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black played :b1:

here instead. White could not play 'a' to capture :b1:

- if doing so 'b' would become a sente move for black so white could not longer play the sequence in the first diagram. So the exchange in the real game was the only way for both sides.

Looking at the outcome, it is easy to feel good for white. After all white was under attack earlier and now he not only managed to save his weak group but also captured three stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | S S X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | S S @ S S X a . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | S S S S X O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | S S @ S @ X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | S X X @ . X O . O , b . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, in my opinion the exchange was not a failure from black's perspective. Black got many points as marked in the diagram: 22 points, plus the extra 7+ point if getting 'a' later. White only captured 3 stones, with aji at 'b' (which means white needed to mend it immediately in the real game, leaving black a sente). White also got some extra thickness which is hard to quantify (but not cash value at the moment). So overall, in terms of points, black was really not bad after the exchange.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . # . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O # . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . # . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR F13 F9}[/go]

This is the position before white's invasion. Please compare this with the above diagram. Black secured all points below the 6th line. Black also got the three marked stones home safely. Black even somehow got the large yose at 'a'. The only price paid was the three stones in the middle.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:53 pm

macelee wrote:
Lee Sedol's was indeed a very smart move. If black plays the obvious , white can then carry out the plan in the previous diagram, and white can run out from 'b' in the previous diagram. So black cannot play here.]

Yup.

macelee wrote:...

Looking at the outcome, it is easy to feel good for white. After all white was under attack earlier and now he not only managed to save his weak group but also captured three stones.

...

However, in my opinion the exchange was not a failure from black's perspective.

I agree that the exchange might not be a total failure, but the point is it means that black's move here was a mistake that white punished:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X O . X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . X B . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O X . O . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . X O O . . X O . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . O , . O X . . O . . . O X , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is no reason to play this move if Ke Jie had anticipated white's next move.

That's why I didn't think it was fair to say that the game was entirely comfortable for Ke Jie. Maybe it's not what you meant, now that you clarified that you were talking about the endgame score difference.

macelee wrote:The only price paid was the three stones in the middle.

Plus the thickness white got. (Also, black should be expected to get a lot of points in an area where he has a large moyo like that.)

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Anyway, I pretty much agree with the thoughts from your analysis (even before you posted it). I'm simply saying that I think that Lee Sedol still had a pretty good chance after capturing the three stones. The thickness he got was hard to quantify, I agree, but I wouldn't say that the game is comfortable for either side at that particular point. (Again, maybe this is not what you meant, after your clarification.)

After the stuff in the top right, I would say the game became more comfortable for Ke Jie, and it became harder and harder for white to find a chance to win (especially after the monkey jump on the bottom).

Life In 19x19

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