Debunking Michael Redmond's Positional Judgement

[mitsun]

It might be worth noting that Redmond tried to improve his ability to read out long endgame sequences as a form of training. He claims this training actually improved his endgame technique. But he also said that this depth of reading is not necessary in order to play a perfect endgame. Reading out the largest moves and getting their sequence right is sufficient, without carrying through the analysis to the much smaller moves, whose sequence can be deferred until later. These statemants may seem slightly contradictory, but (some) humans are sometimes comfortable living with contradictions.

[RobertJasiek]

topazg, the basis of the myth was go forum messages (maybe on godiscussions) suggesting what I mentioned about endgame-like 100 moves sequences during the middle game in the OP. Maybe you do not recall it, but I do because a) I was impressed about Redmond's allegedly reported skill at that time, b) impressed about the method of positional judgement because it presumes extraordinarily correct and deep reading with following counting and c) annoyed because the suggestion had been that other methods of territorial positional judgement (such as mine) would be less skillful (and in fact they would be, because, you know, perfect play reading 100 moves deep during the middle game would indeed be much more skillful than estimating the count +- 1 point 100 moves later).

[Bill Spight]

A few years ago, seemingly convincing rumours have been spread saying that, during the opening and middle game, Michael Redmond 9p could make an accurate territorial positional judgement by reading ahead the game using endgame-like sequences of 100 globally optimal plays. The myth was born that using endgame-like sequences was a feasible method for super-strong players for making an accurate territorial positional judgement also during the opening and middle game.

I was unaware of those rumors, which do not seem convincing to me.

I did hear something similar about Lee Chang-ho, which did not convince me, either.

Anyway, it sounds like a better title for this thread would be something like,

Debunking the myth that Michael Redmond judges opening and middle game positions by reading 100 moves ahead

It sounds like you are questioning Redmond's positional judgement, not internet rumors about superhuman reading ability.

[RobertJasiek]

Bill, thread titles cannot be as long as we wish. If you reread my OP, I also criticise Redmond for his weak positional judgement during opening and middle game.

[uPWarrior]

I think a better thread title that would not be beating around the bush would be "Another topic where the words Positional Judgment are used so that I can sell more books". That might be a little bit too long though..

[Knotwilg]

I didn't hear of this myth before you mentioned it and I've been around (far too long) on go forums. So if anything, you revived it. Like Bill, I heard the claim for Lee ChangHo but not as an instrument for positional judgment, just that on some occasions he could and did read 100 moves deep. That's plausible to me - I know pros can do crazy stuff and I'm capable of some 20 moves myself if there are not too many branches.

I thought the best part of your post was "Cho Chikun and me". That's an instant classic.

[HermanHiddema]

topazg, my various intentions for watching the streams are meta-discussion.

But wait, since you started a discussion about Redmond's discussion of the AlphaGo game, the thread is already meta-discussion. Therefore, topazg's discussion of your reasons for discussing Redmond's discussion of the game should properly be considered meta-meta-discussion.

And by that token, my comment discussing topazg discussion of your discussion of Redmond's discussion of the game is thus meta-meta-meta-discussion. I sure hope people will refrain from starting a discussion about this comment, because I've started to doubt whether "discussion" is even a word...

[DrStraw]

I have to say that most threads involving RJ are not very interesting. But even though he is on my block list and I cannot see his posts I have had more chuckles over this one, just from everyone's responses, than I have had for quite a while.

[RobertJasiek]

I thought the best part of your post was "Cho Chikun and me". That's an instant classic.

You sound ironic but, if so, you miss the point. I mention Cho because he is the predecessor of my very much more worked out theory of territorial positional judgement during the opening and middle game, which is more accurate for that purpose than any other theory mentioned by John's meticulous efforts over the years about books by Asian professionals, who make greater use of parameters or other approximations. (Note: endgame values are a different topic.)

[Pippen]

Could Redmond have a shot at AlphaGo? How good is he still? At least he looks like 30+....

[RobertJasiek]

topazg's discussion of your reasons for discussing Redmond's discussion of the game

topazg asked for my reasons for watching the stream. What you now mention is much more specific and reasonably on-topic, although you bury it amidst a joke.

I discuss Redmond's territorial positional judgement because its (unfortunately low) quality is worth discussing, debunking the related rumour is worthwhile, putting professionals in a context of their actual, realistic skills enables better learning from them or their games when not confusing good information with mistakes, understanding the positional judgements of the games in the match AlphaGo - Lee Sedol is important for learning players, programmers and computer scientists, comparing with other judgements (such as Kim's) is interesting, comparing methods of positional judgement is good for learning and correcting mistakes helps avoiding learning wrong things.

[oren]

Could Redmond have a shot at AlphaGo? How good is he still? At least he looks like 30+....

http://sports.geocities.jp/mamumamu0413 ... rate1.html

112th in Japan.
414th in the world list.

Nowhere near Lee Sedol...

[oren]

I discuss Redmond's territorial positional judgement because its (unfortunately low) quality is worth discussing

What he does in games is different than what he will do while giving commentary. Just in case you didn't realize this...

[DrStraw]

Could Redmond have a shot at AlphaGo? How good is he still? At least he looks like 30+....

http://sports.geocities.jp/mamumamu0413 ... rate1.html

112th in Japan.
414th in the world list.

Nowhere near Lee Sedol...

It is somewhat depressing to think that a 9 dan pro could be 112th in Japane and 414th in the world. There was a time when the rank of 9 dan (Meijin) was reserved for the one and only best player.

[RobertJasiek]

oren, Redmond's skill as a player is impressive, especially his dynamic reading. I think in his games he would spend a bit more time on making judgements and use more accurate ones, but I do not understand that he spent quite a few seconds on rough counting when using 3 more seconds would have allowed him to declare counts accurate by 1 or 2 points instead of rough approximations +-5 points preventing him from identifying the leader in a close game with an expected score smaller than 5 points.