Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

memotype · Post by **memotype** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:25 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a 1 b . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My question is about

and my response at

. I thought it was odd for white to play the oogeima after my jump, and I wasn't sure how to respond. I couldn't find this sequence in Kogo's joseki library, and I couldn't see how I could pass up an opportunity to attack white's corner stone, but I wasn't sure what the right attack move was. My move at

seemed like a strong attack, but it does seem to give white the option of taking the corner at a, giving black the side, or extending out at b, giving black the corner. I thought about playing

at a, but it seemed like it would be too easy to cut with

at

. And then

really confused me, seeming to completely give up on the corner altogether. If black plays at b, is white dead in the corner, or can white live? (For what it's worth, I ended up playing

at a, so I'm not trying to cheat by asking where I should play in this game, just curious about how it reads out.)

Anyway, this whole sequence just really confused me and I'm just curious to see what people think about it.

In case it's relevant, this is a game on DGS. I'm ranked at 9k on there, and white is also 9k.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:34 am

Hi memotype,

F3 for

is a possibility.

Suppose we ignore the global considerations for the moment.
Locally, when you jump out to

,
you have miai of two directions -- the grey areas:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . $$ | . . . ? . . . . . $$ | . . 3 ? ? . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . ? . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

That's one meaning of jumping out to

.
W plays

on top, so pressuring

is natural.
One variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 6 . O . 1 5 . . $$ | . . . . 4 2 3 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

BTW, what's the current position on DGS ?
If

is current, then it seems a bit too soon
to ask for advice at the moment...
( Any comments on

or follow-ups to your

can affect your on-going DGS game. )

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:55 am

And globally,

is quite a good move. It prevent black from getting the key point C10. At the same time, it is 4th line position helps to reduce the influence of the tengen stone.

Playing off-joseki moves is not necessarily a bad thing. As a simple rule, if you can find at least two good reasons for playing a move (like I just did), it is probably a reasonable move, on or off joseki.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:52 am

memotype wrote:I couldn't see how I could pass up an opportunity to attack white's corner stone, but I wasn't sure what the right attack move was. My move at seemed like a strong attack

As a general principle, if you want to attack don't touch your opponent's stone(s). Attack from a distance. Ed's f3 is a perfect example of attacking and surrounding from a distance (it's what I'd play).

memotype · Post by **memotype** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:02 am

EdLee wrote:( Any comments on or follow-ups to your can affect your on-going DGS game. )

Here's the current board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . 0 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 1 . . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm mostly interested in feedback on my moves at

and

. I know someone else said attacking by attaching isn't a good idea, but I have a much stronger group, and my plan wasn't to capture anyway, but to attach and push.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:41 am

Hi memotype,

I started to edit a variation diagram,
but then remembered/realized it could affect your on-going game,
as mentioned, so I deleted the diagram.

memotype wrote:but I have a much stronger group, and my plan wasn't to capture anyway, but to attach and push.

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions on this, too,
but my assessment is your group is not only not "much stronger,"
but actually still weak after your

.

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:58 pm

Did you consider your 8 at E3?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:40 pm

We can only say so much since it's an ongoing game, but compare the current board to the one after Ed's variation? Which do you prefer? Why?

memotype · Post by **memotype** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:22 am

Tryss wrote:Did you consider your 8 at E3?

Yes, as I explained in my original diagram, I was considering

at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move?

memotype · Post by **memotype** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:29 am

hyperpape wrote:We can only say so much since it's an ongoing game, but compare the current board to the one after Ed's variation? Which do you prefer? Why?

I think if I wanted to surround white, the variation where I play

at b in my original diagram would be better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 9 1 8 . 7 . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:48 am

White's game 7 was very odd and let you get more than you deserved. The normal continuation would be something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence (11 at a) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . a . . , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can see, that as often happens when you attach, both sides got stronger. As for:

memotype wrote:I was considering at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move?

Even if white can live in the corner it is a disaster, as white is separated into many groups.

memotype · Post by **memotype** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:59 am

Uberdude wrote:White's game 7 was very odd and let you get more than you deserved.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. Seemed very odd to me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something vital in white's play. Which is why I played

at a to be on the safe side, in case

was some kind of trap that I wasn't reading out correctly.

The normal continuation would be something like this:

$$Wc Off-joseki sequence (11 at a)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . a . . , . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 0 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Off-joseki sequence (11 at a) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . a . . , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
You can see, that as often happens when you attach, both sides got stronger. As for:
memotype wrote:I was considering at b. You think that would have been a better move? Do you think white would be able to live in the corner after that move?
Even if white can live in the corner it is a disaster, as white is separated into many groups.

Good point, I should have thought of that. Again, white's play was so strange and unusual that I played overly cautious. I should have been more aggressive.

Thanks again, this is pretty much exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:36 am

Hi memotype,

The variation in post 11 was the one I had already edited in post 6,
but deleted it as the lower left corner is still not finished in your on-going game.

Life In 19x19

Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

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Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

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Re: Off-joseki sequence after pincer?

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