8k vs 8k

singular · Post by **singular** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:38 am

Hi! I have some questions about certain moves in the SGF up to move 60, if anyone could give me some much needed guidance! Any comments on what I could have done better in general would also be much appreciated.

Thankyou!

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:48 am

In the top right, jumping into the corner seems ok, but you need to extend once at :w14:

before threatening to connect under. That way, after the connection threat, white can play a one space jump and most likely end in sente.

Because of this, white feels a bit behind by :b21:

.

feels like aji-keshi. At the least, jump out with a knight's move. That said, it's very easy for black to break up the right because it's so open. Don't count on making a big moyo there.

At :w40:

the double hane is correct. If black cuts and white fixes, black's cuts become a problem and he can't take the outside without dying in the corner.

At :w46:

maybe E15, or E10, or D10? You could also consider if white can expand the bottom moyo at the expense of black's, in which case probing at B16 may be good, followed by some sort of jump from the bottom left after black goes for the outside. If you really want to play on the third line, play one space farther.

As for your question at :w60:

, sacrificing that stone is fine to get outside strength, but E7 or the like is important later, as it helps create a white moyo.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:54 am

A few comments.

Edit: Found the game losing play, Black 225. Added a couple of variations there.

singular · Post by **singular** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:33 pm

Thanks skydyr and Bill!

So the consensus is that the 3-3 jump is sort-of OK but not really. Not OK if I don't extend once before threatening to connect. I'm very weak with joseki, haven't studied it much in favor of other things, so I always wondered if I should extend first. Cool . . . that's squared away.

Also on joseki, the c3 play I always thought was needed. Bill, it's surprising to see F17 as a viable alternative, I wouldn't have considered it, perhaps because my joseki knowledge is lackluster. But I like the, uh, élan of this move. I'll have to explore it further because I'd like to play it.

It's good to know that the R15 and Q15 moves are subpar. Thanks for the alternatives-- they seem pretty fancy but I'm excited to internalize these possibilities.

The double-hane skydyr pointed out I can now tuck away as a standard thing.

Thanks again for the time and effort of showing me some really good stuff. Bill, the detailed variations in the SGF I'll be poring over for a while. They show me I need to expand my horizons quite a bit.

singular · Post by **singular** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:59 pm

Bill, I just saw the variations at the end of the game. It just goes to show: I thought an enclosed 8-space shape was unkillable, but even if so, seki and ko can ruin my day nonetheless. If I took the time to play on S17 myself, white would win by .5? It's hard to see these things.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:29 pm

singular wrote:Also on joseki, the c3 play I always thought was needed. Bill, it's surprising to see F17 as a viable alternative, I wouldn't have considered it, perhaps because my joseki knowledge is lackluster...

FYI, I always insist that a move is only sente if the response is the biggest move on the board. Sometimes that's the case, sometimes it isn't. Locally C3 and C8 are common ideas, but they still have to be bigger than "every other tenuki" for B4 to be truly sente

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:19 am

topazg wrote:
singular wrote:Also on joseki, the c3 play I always thought was needed. Bill, it's surprising to see F17 as a viable alternative, I wouldn't have considered it, perhaps because my joseki knowledge is lackluster...

FYI, I always insist that a move is only sente if the response is the biggest move on the board. Sometimes that's the case, sometimes it isn't. Locally C3 and C8 are common ideas, but they still have to be bigger than "every other tenuki" for B4 to be truly sente

The reason for not playing c3 is not that white fears it is not sente and would be upset if black tenukis rather than continuing the joseki at c9, it is that white is not sure that the exchange of c3 for c9 is beneficial for white. With c3 white gains some territory and a base in the corner, with c9 black gains some territory and base on the side, which can also help him develop the top left area. So white might not want to give black a stone at c9 before starting action on the top side. Having said that I wouldn't call c3 a mistake, indeed it is the 2nd most popular move in this opening in pro games with a slightly >50% win rate. The most popular is high approach at the top left, Bill's suggestion of the low distant approach is 4th and has a poor win rate (1 out of 5).

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:38 am

Yes, sorry, my point was perhaps not very clear. I was trying to challenge the notion that "joseki is this sequence, which must always be played out to completion" which I find a lot of players have. The underlying point I was trying to make is that the correct move is always the most beneficial move on the board, whether it is local or not. It's very easy to get into the trap of playing out full "learned" sequence by rote without ever questioning that you actually have a choice to do something else

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:46 am

singular wrote:Bill, I just saw the variations at the end of the game. It just goes to show: I thought an enclosed 8-space shape was unkillable, but even if so, seki and ko can ruin my day nonetheless. If I took the time to play on S17 myself, white would win by .5? It's hard to see these things.

I lean towards T-18, myself.

Anyway, protecting the corner territory is rather large, how large depending on the ko threat situation. The right time to protect may be with White 156, right after the hane of Black 155. Predicting the final score from there is not so easy.

White's last chance in the game is White 224, instead of filling the ko. At that point you should be able to figure out the final result.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:56 am

Uberdude wrote:I wouldn't call c3 a mistake,

Me, either. In my reviews I often make suggestions to players to broaden their horizons.

indeed it is the 2nd most popular move in this opening in pro games with a slightly >50% win rate. The most popular is high approach at the top left, Bill's suggestion of the low distant approach is 4th and has a poor win rate (1 out of 5).

I'll send a note of complaint to Go Seigen.

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