Frustrated

[Pio2001]

(Also on 9x9. I wouldn't even know where to begin on a bigger board.) It would be foolish of me to waste another human being's time playing against me.

Hi dmpeyton,
This helps us to see where you are. It seems that your level is around 25 kyu.

I second Charles Matthews's advices.

Good books for beginners are Go, a Complete Introduction to the Game, by Cho Chikun, or Learn to Play Go vol 1, by Janice Kim.
If you play a lot on 9x9, you may -or may not- be already familiar with some of the techniques explained in these books (ladders, vital points, nets, capture races...).
Learn to Play Go vol 2 explains what to do on a 19x19 board.

[jeromie]

I agree with the advice you've been given. At about your level, I got Learn to Play Go volume 2. (I skipped volume 1.) Having a book really helped accelerate my learning.

Play people! There are plenty of other beginners out there, and you're both likely to have more fun if you play each other. Weak computer opponents tend to make the same mistakes over and over, so it's hard to learn from them. Many stronger players are perfectly happy to play games with beginners, too. Increasing the joy that go brings and expanding the go playing community is not a waste of their time.

I'd be happy to play a teaching game some time if we could work out a time that worked for both of us. Alternatively, if you post your sgf files to this forum you're likely to get some good advice from people willing to review your game.

[Mike Novack]

1) The advice "quickly lose 100 games" is perhaps too easily misunderstood because over simplified. In order to learn, you need to see the difference between right and wrong strategies. In other words, even at the stage where you usually do the wrong thing you have to be sometimes doing the right thing. The 100 games refers to the numer lost out of perhaps 125-150. If you are playing under conditions that you lose ALL of them, of course you can't learn. Try inder conditions of strength disparity plus handicap that you SOMETIMES win.

2) SOME people can learn from books (while other people, only personal trial and error). If you are one of the people who can learn from books, there are some that teach elementary strategy and tactics.

3) If you can't find anybody to play against with the appropriate strength difference plus handicap so that you win 1 out of every 4-5 games consider one of the bots you can run on your own computer. Best to use these with a strength setting so that you need at least three stone handicap.

4) About the previous post "weak computer programs tend to make the same mistakes". That is true of some but not of others. You want one of the latter sort (that have a "randomize" option). And use a strength setting so you need at least three stones. Yes they will still be making systematic mistakes, but ones that a stronger player might make (stronger than where you currently are). Will be able to punish the mistakes at YOUR current (lower level) so you cna learn not to make those. It's only once you get up to the level where the programs are using MCTS that you should consider playing level games against them.

[sybob]

Perhaps OP is now a bit overwhelmed by the above advice.

So, remind: have fun, have a chat and/or drink. Don't force speedy improvement, take a short break if you like.

[dmpeyton]

Thanks for all the helpful advice! That is exactly what I was looking for, particularly the book recommendations. I will give one of these a try to see if that helps. I suppose I will try playing some humans online, but honestly the idea fills me with dread. And we are talking about playing a game online here, so I know it will not be long at all till I run into a jerk who just wants to taunt and make fun of me. I can handle it, but I'd rather not if I don't need to.

The oft quoted advice is "lose your first 100 games." This implies that you should lose ALL of your first 100 games, not 100 out of your first 200 games or something like that. The learning will only take place when you do something wrong and then see how it could have been right, or better yet, see something wrong and then change your mind and DO it right.

We'll see how it goes!

[dmpeyton]

Perhaps OP is now a bit overwhelmed by the above advice.

So, remind: have fun, have a chat and/or drink. Don't force speedy improvement, take a short break if you like.

Awesome advice for pretty much any pursuit!

[schawipp]

So, remind: have fun, have a chat and/or drink.

You can do it also the other way round: First have fun, a nice chat/drink and then lose all games on the next day's tournament, as I just practised on last weekend

[joellercoaster]

I suppose I will try playing some humans online, but honestly the idea fills me with dread.

This is very common (and I include myself).

http://senseis.xmp.net/?OnlineGoAnxiety (in general, wandering around Sensei's Library is good for getting a feeling of what the topics in Go are anyway.)

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11114 (recent thread on here about OGA)

And we are talking about playing a game online here, so I know it will not be long at all till I run into a jerk who just wants to taunt and make fun of me.

You may be surprised. I have been playing now for a couple of years, only on OGS, and haven't had a bad experience yet. This is not to say it doesn't happen! Just that it may well not.

The oft quoted advice is "lose your first 100 games." This implies that you should lose ALL of your first 100 games, not 100 out of your first 200 games or something like that.

I am still in search of my hundredth loss (right now I have 87, though a couple more are definitely coming to a conclusion). While it's true that maybe I am having too much fun, and it's very likely indeed that I am not improving at the optimal rate for my admittely limited talent, I am still gradually getting better and learning things. It's only a little bit frustrating

Seriously, it's possible to take all that advice too literally. It may even be meant literally. But your go experience is yours, do it how you want.

I would advise starting to play against humans online though. The awesome thing about the rating system is that it will quickly get you games you have a chance to win and a chance to lose... losing might make you better faster, but winning is also worthwhile. Good luck!

[edit: FWIW, I don't think "Lose your first hundred games as quickly as possible" is meant literally. I think it's more a way of saying, the learning curve is steep, and the learning curve is incredibly high, playing is the best way to learn and the world is full of stronger players - but don't feel bad about it, it's all good.]

[cel70]

What kept my interest going in the early stages of Go is not actually winning, or even capturing groups, but the satisfaction of keeping a group alive by forming two eyes. The book Go For Beginners by Kaoru Iwamoto helped a lot here. Once I learned how to form two eyes to protect a group my confidence increased a lot in a game. There was a satisfying element of defiance about it. "I may have lost the game by points, bit at least you didn't capture my groups! Ha!"

Since then I have become a bit braver, but that hedgehog mentality certainly helped me in the first months.

[Bantari]

The oft quoted advice is "lose your first 100 games." This implies that you should lose ALL of your first 100 games, not 100 out of your first 200 games or something like that. The learning will only take place when you do something wrong and then see how it could have been right, or better yet, see something wrong and then change your mind and DO it right.

I think people take the proverb much too literally. To me, the saying "lose your first 100 games" contains two pieces of very loose advice, really...

The first piece of advice is:
You need to play around 100 games to start some kind of understanding. Of course, this number is different for different people, and some start "getting" it after 10 games. Some have good teacher and starte "getting" it immediately.

The second piece of advice is:
Do not worry about winning or losing, just play to learn. If you make peace with the fact that you will lose all these games, you will not get discouraged by the many losses. But if you happen to win, het - that's a bonus. Still, since you are a beginner, you will lose more than you win, and you have to be prepared for that.

So, overall, I would say it means: play a lot of games and don't worry about winning or losing, just enjoy.
I think it is a sound advice.

[dmpeyton]

Well, I am still playing this game, but it is definitely a love-hate relationship. Learn to Play Go, vols 1 and 2 helped somewhat. Of course, I almost never actually apply the concepts from the books because I don't see them on the board. I feel like lessons with a real human being would be by far the best way to learn, but of course that's not going to happen. I play against the computer with enough of a handicap that I actually have a chance to win. I am amazed by all the comments about not caring about winning or losing. So you guys don't care whether you win or lose? There's no way I'm going to believe that.

For what it's worth, I'm actually not an idiot. But this game sure makes me feel like one.

[Kirby]

I am amazed by all the comments about not caring about winning or losing. So you guys don't care whether you win or lose?

I care about winning, and it hurts to lose. But you can learn from that pain, and try to figure out how to make it not happen again (or at least less).

Failing is fine, but the key is to learn and improve from it. Otherwise, what are you doing?

[Charles Matthews]

For what it's worth, I'm actually not an idiot. But this game sure makes me feel like one.

So that's about the learning curve. You do need some handholds to clamber up.

[jeromie]

I feel like lessons with a real human being would be by far the best way to learn, but of course that's not going to happen.

Why not? If you're willing to learn over the internet, there are any number of people who would be happy to help. I'm not an expert go teacher, but I'd be happy to give you a few lessons if we can arrange a suitable time and you think it would help.

So you guys don't care whether you win or lose? There's no way I'm going to believe that.

I can't speak for others, but I care about whether I win or lose. But losing is an inevitable part of the game, and I can take pleasure from a good game even if I don't win. Losing too much (or for poor reasons) can certainly throw me into a funk, though. In that case, it can be best to step away from the game for a little while so I don't descend into a spiral where my bad attitude causes me to lose more.

[Aernout]

Dear dmpeyton,

I myself started to play not so long ago. What I noticed is that, as a new player, you need to grow brand new intuition. In my opinion, as a beginner you should split your time 50/50 between studying (first), and trying to apply the concepts you practiced during your study in games. Note that I say "practiced", not "read about". I am a firm believer of learning by doing.

This method works really well for me, because I start to recognize in my games the patterns that I learned during practice: I feel myself improving! Two games ago, I killed a group by using a throw-in for the first time in my career. I went on to win the game, as 9x9's are determined by small things, but I was completely happy about recognizing that I could capture some stones with this technique. Moment like these are what makes Go fun for me. And this is, I think, at the same time the fastest way to improve: You don't focus on short term results (winning a game), but you are in it for the long haul.

That being said, I do enjoy winning just as much as the next guy. ;)

My first concrete advice for you is the following:

• Play games against humans! I have yet to encounter the first ill-meaning opponent. Be nice to your opponents, make friends, look at some variation together after the game. This is fun and you will learn! (Inevitably, some people are a-holes. Some might just have a bad day. Ignore them and look for a new, positive person to play with.)
• Don't focus on winning, but on applying in the game the concept that you learned during practice/study. (At some point I told myself: "I can do whatever I want this game, but I am going to start at a 3-3 point and darn-it: that stone will be the first stone of a living group!")

But most importantly:

• I really want to recommend this website from the Dutch Go association (it has pages in English as well): http://www.321go.org. It introduces concepts slowly, and has tons of exercises so you can learn to see the patterns. Really, I think most people tend to study too complex material too fast. Start with the basics, learn them to a level where you do not only understand them, but to the level that you can apply them (i.e. by doing)! Then you can make a coupling between practice and your games.

If you want to play on OGS, send me a message! :)


Have Fun! :D

EDIT: An addendum. When I get completely wrecked a few games in a row, I do feel demotivated. Especially if I already was tired to begin with. I learned that I should simply stop playing that moment. In a bad mind-set, it's much more difficult to think creatively. I will lose and I will feel like it was inevitable. And then, my mood will be even worse. Only play when you have a positive mind-set, otherwise no good will come from it. ;)