Rude behaviour in scoring?

[betoacosta]

Yesterday the following situation happen in a KGS (blitz) game. On scoring I noticed that I was 0.5 points behind, instinctively I returned to the game (still playing blitz in my head) and my opponent complained ("you are poor!"). In the meantime I realized that one Dame (connection) point for my opponent was being counted as territory so it was actually +0.5 for me. But...I also took into account my opponents complaint and decided to resign.

What are the ethics of going back after the count? My intuition is that it is not acceptable (thus my resignation). But would like to know.

[uPWarrior]

I don't think it is acceptable to go back to the game after the count to invade or to do something else that invites complications, BUT I don't think it's acceptable to win base on a mistake of the automatic scoring neither.
I think that going back to the game to force the connection (thus forcing the correct score) is the right thing to do.

[DrStraw]

The players should be careful to avoid this sort of thing happening before entering the scoring phase. However, if there is a clear error in scoring then I see nothing wrong with backing out to correct the error.

But your statement " On scoring I noticed that I was 0.5 points behind, instinctively I returned to the game " raises a concern. It seems to imply that because you had apparently lost you tried to go back, instead of returning because you realized there was an error. Such behavior seems inappropriate to me.

[ez4u]

The reason the server gives you the option is that mistakes happen. Don't feel guilty about it and don't let you opponent define you.

Of course the situation that will really say something about you is if you are half a point ahead and realize there is a mistake in your favor! What then?

[jeromie]

I think time controls matter in this situation. If you were playing a slow game with plenty of time left on the clock, I don't see a problem with going back to the game. (A message explaining why to your opponent would still be nice, though.) But in blitz, you get a significant advantage in having the whole scoring period to find your mistake. I'd consider resuming the game in that case to lean towards poor sportsmanship.

[Bill Spight]

What are the ethics of going back after the count? My intuition is that it is not acceptable (thus my resignation). But would like to know.

Go with your gut.

[RobertJasiek]

You need to describe exactly what happened in exactly what order with exactly which states under which ruleset. From the OP, I have too little information to decide whether ethics play a role and, if yes, whether you, your opponent or both might have acted unethically, the programmer made a mistake or the software had a runtime error. Maybe also the game file helps.

[Kirby]

Who cares about ethics on KGS, anyway? Don't tell me you have qualms about escapers, too!

[wineandgolover]

Who cares about ethics on KGS, anyway? Don't tell me you have qualms about escapers, too!

Hey Kirby,

Not everybody will be able to read your humor/sarcasm here. Hopefully, post-AG, we've picked up new board members, but they'll have no idea of your (or anybody's) history on KGS.

[betoacosta]

I know this is not the most important question ever, but I'm new to the Go community and would like to have proper behaviour. I don't care that much about results, sometimes when my opponents do the "boredom tesuji" I just resign because what's the point?

Ok exact order of events/complete information.

1.Game 5m + 3x 10s byomi
2.I was in my last byomi for the last 50 moves. I eventually passed.
3.On the scoring I noticed that I was 0.5 behind
4.I returned to the game (i was still clicking at a 10s byomi pace...
5.my opponent complained
6.ONLY THEN I noticed the dame/point
7.I played one move
8.my opponent answered
9.It hit me, I must resign as this is not correct...
10.I resigned.


I think if 6 was before (or during) 3 then I might have a case for not resigning.

[Uberdude]

Reminds me of a story from Matthew Macfadyen 6d a few years ago in the British Challengers' tournament (http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/To ... n=10249019). Matthew lost to Des Cann by half a point, which in the end meant he came 3rd and thus missed out on the title match (which he's played in and won for most of the last few decades). In the car on the way home from the tournament he realised that Des hadn't played a defensive move inside his corner (and lose by 0.5), and thus Matthew could have played inside to make a seki and win the game. No undos possible here!

[wineandgolover]

I know this is not the most important question ever, but I'm new to the Go community and would like to have proper behaviour. I don't care that much about results, sometimes when my opponents do the "boredom tesuji" I just resign because what's the point?

Ok exact order of events/complete information.

1.Game 5m + 3x 10s byomi
2.I was in my last byomi for the last 50 moves. I eventually passed.
3.On the scoring I noticed that I was 0.5 behind
4.I returned to the game (i was still clicking at a 10s byomi pace...
5.my opponent complained
6.ONLY THEN I noticed the dame/point
7.I played one move
8.my opponent answered
9.It hit me, I must resign as this is not correct...
10.I resigned.


I think if 6 was before (or during) 3 then I might have a case for not resigning.

I think your final decision was correct. It is fine to go back to the game if the score function doesn't work because you didn't seal a border, or for one player to prove to the other that a group is/isn't dead. It's less cool to correct a losing move (or non-move).

I'd recommend filling in all dame at the end of the game. If your opponent prefers to pass, that's fine, just keep filling until you are certain it won't make a difference.

[wineandgolover]

I don't care that much about results, sometimes when my opponents do the "boredom tesuji" I just resign because what's the point

Resigning a won game because the opponent misbehaves just encourages them to do it again. If your opponent misbehaves, just notify an admin, and let them sort it out.

[RobertJasiek]

Ok exact order of events/complete information.

1.Game 5m + 3x 10s byomi
2.I was in my last byomi for the last 50 moves. I eventually passed.
3.On the scoring I noticed that I was 0.5 behind
4.I returned to the game (i was still clicking at a 10s byomi pace...
5.my opponent complained
6.ONLY THEN I noticed the dame/point
7.I played one move
8.my opponent answered
9.It hit me, I must resign as this is not correct...
10.I resigned.

Relevant information is missing:
- Which rules were used?
- What does "On the scoring" mean? Your positional judgement? The server's markup of intersections? The optional Score Estimator?
- You passed, but did your opponent pass, too? This has implications for whether you could have returned to the game or were still playing the game sequence,
- By exactly which means did you return to the game? Why was it your turn just after you returned to the game?
- Your description of dame / point is unclear. Do you mean a dame, a teire or a point of territory?

It is fine to go back to the game if the score function doesn't work because you didn't seal a border, or for one player to prove to the other that a group is/isn't dead. It's less cool to correct a losing move (or non-move).

I'd recommend filling in all dame at the end of the game. If your opponent prefers to pass, that's fine, just keep filling until you are certain it won't make a difference.

AFAIK, the score function always works, but the point is: it can work wrongly especially under KGS-Japanese Rules.

If KGS-Japanese Rules were used, a boundary was not settled and the score function worked wrongly, it is ok to resume the game because 1) the game rules of the KGS-Japanese Rules are ambiguous and 2) the implementation of KGS-Japanese Rules is wrong. If KGS-Japanese Rules were used, then it is wrong / unethical to resume KGS game play to prove a life and death status because such can affect the score. Instead, the prove must be done by other means, such as hypothetical analysis or analysis in a different, free game window. If a different ruleset was used, this means that it had area scoring; since the KGS playout rules are ambiguous, it is possible / ethical to resume KGS game play to prove a life and death status, especially if the opponent is informed about the intended meaning of the resumption. If the intention is to undo one's earlier move, this is not just "less cool" but strictly against the nature of go that legal moves of the regular game sequence may not be taken back; inhowfar this also applies to passes is unclear because KGS game ending rules are ambiguous.

Instead of recommending to fill all dame, I recommend to fill all two-sided dame, one-sided dame (by the player who can fill some) and teire - but not the zero-sided dame whose filling would destroy sekis to alter the score in the opponent's favour. Filling the appropriate dame and teire is a good idea on KGS under any rules, and is recommended by the programmer, because it prevents most of the scoring implementation mistakes. Most KGS users are not aware of the scoring bugs (or do not care), but this should not prevent you from filling of the appropriate dame and teire for the sake of getting the correct score in most cases. (There are a few KGS users that escape on seeing such filling - especially when they are behind -, but the escaper is the rude person.)

[wineandgolover]

Robert, I'm sure you are right. But I have no idea what zero, one, and two sided dame, much less teire are, and I suspect few do. I think the advice of filling dame until certain of the outcome is pretty reasonable.

The real point is that betoacosta passed, then realized during scoring that he could have won, and resigned anyway. Classy move, imho.