Direction of play problem

Kuros · Post by **Kuros** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:46 am

This is from one of my games, I'm black. I played the wrong joseki in the bottom left corner, giving white enormous influence. How should I counter it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:56 am

How about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:14 am

To talk about countering White's influence is a bit hopeful.

White's lead is difficult to turn around at the dan level, but far from impossible at the SDK level. Patience is required.

In addition to macelee's suggestion, here are a couple of more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Tengen $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O b . . , . c O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Tengen is a possibility, making a huge framework. If White invades, he may make a misstep. If he does not invade, Black makes a lot of territory.

Tengen aims at White's cutting points at "a", "b", and "c".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner approach $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White's top left corner is a bit thin, and hence, vulnerable. :b1:

aims at that. What Black wants to avoid is getting chased such that White destroys the existing Black framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For instance, if White seals the corner with :w2:

, Black might continue with tengen. In this case the tengen stone has something else to aim at.

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:30 am

Huh, interesting that Bill says it's difficult to turn around at dan level as I was actually thinking I might like black - definitely trust Bill on this one, but surprising that my judgement is so off (then again, I play double sansan so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised).

Edit: also, to actually provide some input to the original question, I might also consider the following possibilities - not sure whether the third-line approach is better, just possible alternatives.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner approach $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:48 am

illluck wrote:Huh, interesting that Bill says it's difficult to turn around at dan level as I was actually thinking I might like black - definitely trust Bill on this one, but surprising that my judgement is so off (then again, I play double sansan so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised).

Oh, I'm just one guy, and I am known to favor outside influence.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:55 am

I actually prefer B here. B has plenty of territory and good future territorial prospects, and all B shapes look good. In the lower right, the W wall is inefficient, as it lacks an extension and cannot make territory without becoming over-concentrated. In addition, there is a severe cut which B can use for further profit. In the lower left, the W thickness again lacks an extension and is marred by serious cutting points which would be quite profitable for B.

I like the calm expansion move suggested by macelee, particularly if B believes he is leading and does not need to invade the W framework on the left.

However, if B is worried about that W potential, now is the perfect time to invade, as there is an ideal invasion point. That invasion leaves three directions to run, so it should not suffer a very severe attack. Getting this move before W has a chance to make an extension along the left side seems like good timing. Once B establishes a safe position here, W will be left with very little territory.

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:33 am

Kuros wrote:This is from one of my games, I'm black. I played the wrong joseki in the bottom left corner, giving white enormous influence. How should I counter it?

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There have been other interesting suggestions. I like :b1:

here as a direction. Perhaps not immediately, given that the lower right is also a significant area.

But if Black can live here, which seems likely to me, White is a long way behind in territory. Expect fighting: but as has been pointed out, Black has decent shape.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:02 am

This isn't really an answer to the "what is the correct direction of play now?", but more showing a flexible technique you may not be aware of to deal with that funny top left enclosure. If black invades on the left with the knight's move, and white pincers (which is maybe not actually a great idea on this board, being overconcentrated with that thickness), black does not need to run/slide and make a weak group, but can sacrifice the stone and make himself a comfortable corner life. This 'armpit hit' of :b3:

is a technique I learned from Mateusz Surma 1p who seems to find nice places to use it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Corner approach, sacrifice and take corner. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 7 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 5 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White might then continue like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Continuation, note the bad aji of the cutting point a. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X X 1 a . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Another continuation (6 needed or b kills), again bad aji at slightly different a $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 4 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X X 2 3 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . X O O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Kuros · Post by **Kuros** » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:16 am

Thank you all for the instructive suggestions. My own play in this situation was to immediately start cutting those points in the bottom which gave me a floating useless little group there. I was considering the flexible invasion on the left side at a as well. I have to admit that I didn't really consider to extend my own stones, which I should have contemplated since the fuseki isn't really finished yet. I have to admit tengen looks kind of interesting; it feels like it makes a and b a bit miai here (though white b seems slow):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Tengen $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:35 am

Kuros wrote: I have to admit tengen looks kind of interesting [...]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Tengen $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . r . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . y . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . x . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . p q . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There is such a thing as ''too'' interesting. And I tend to treat tengen with suspicion: clearly the pros sometimes play it, but I don't suppose that's because they have some sort of intuitive attachment.

My specific problem is that White gets a chance to fight on a large scale, with p or q, x or y. Maybe I'd play q, looking to r or x next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Tengen, another game $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . 2 . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For comparison, if the marked black stones are on the fourth line, :b3:

here gives a chance to mix things up and put White on the back foot. White's cutting points will start to come into the game quite soon.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . c . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . f . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This position has a few equivalence positions: both a and b build Black's sphere of influence and as such are both reduction points for White to add more influence. Both c and d check a White position while extending either extension stone with a base. A and C increase the potential of an invasion in the corner. B and D put more pressure on White's wall to become effective.

This seems to speak for e, but I don't like that move. It's too close to White's strength below and it destroys the potential in the corner if White responds there.

Perhaps equivalence is not good enough a reason to not play either point and indeed Macelee's suggestion seems fine as it is.

But ... what about F? Playing away from thickness and keeping the equivalence available.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:20 am

Knotwilg wrote:
Perhaps equivalence is not good enough a reason to not play either point and indeed Macelee's suggestion seems fine as it is.

But ... what about F? Playing away from thickness and keeping the equivalence available.

I think it's easy to trick yourself with this kind of equivalence thinking, because there are a pair of similar good moves, and another pair of similar good moves, doesn't mean you should play none of them and play a bad move instead! I too like macelee's jump. a and b areas aren't actually so equivalent as white's wall in the lower right is baseless (I wouldn't say weak yet) so b has the potential for future exploitation of that, particularly with the cutting point waiting there. On the other hand a jump around a is simply a mutual moyo and influence growth/reduction point, the white shimari in the top left remains strong.

Another thing to think about, is where would white like to play if black passed? Something like this feels good to me, and I definitely wouldn't want to answer so submissively and overconcentrated with 3 if 1 is already there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . c . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:05 pm

Hmmm. I wonder how my miai heuristic would work here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Right side jump vs. extension, I $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Right side jump vs. extension, II $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that we can eliminate the extension on the right side. In the first diagram, :w2:

looks small, while :w2:

looks good in the second diagram. (Note that the comparisons are not exact miais. This is just a heuristic.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Right side jump vs. extension, I $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Top side jump vs. extension, II $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . 1 . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that we can eliminate the top side extension in similar fashion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Right side jump vs. invasion, I $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In this diagram :w2:

(or "a") looks too slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Right side jump vs. invasion, II $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . O O O O O . . | $$ | . . X . X X O . . . . O X . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I prefer

or Uberdude's "a" in this diagram.

Life In 19x19

Direction of play problem

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Re: Direction of play problem