Crazystone

[erislover]

Crazystone continues to be a really impressive bot. I just bought my copy last night and I was up to wee hours analyzing some games, watching it play itself, and relaying a game for a KGS buddy.

I wish I could set it up for kgsgtp.

I have to say that I still really like it's style, it reminds me a lot of old go games from China (1300s-1700s). (I could probably ramble on about this subject for some time.) While it seems to value influence much more than they did, it has a very similar sense of trying to discoordinate opponent stones. (I could probably ramble on this subject for some time as well.) I had SGFs of two old games transcribed from "The Celestial Arsenal" and gave CS a chance to analyze them. It seems CS appreciated the style a lot, but I am not sure I understand the abstract number given by analysis mode for how much CS likes its own suggested move relative to the move made.

Analysis is a little clunky if you want to play out a tree, but since you can just turn CS on with no time limit you can see what it's thinking anyway by playing against it, or having it play itself for a few moves.

[dfan]

I am not sure I understand the abstract number given by analysis mode for how much CS likes its own suggested move relative to the move made.

It's how much it thinks the probability of winning the game would have gone up if the suggested move had been played rather than the actual move. Unfortunately,

• It's given to 6 digits, which is hard to read, has much more precision than is actually relevant, and implies much more precision than actually exists.
• It's given as a raw number, rather than a percentage, which means every number starts with a "0.0" you have to mentally strip off.

As an example, if the Delta it gives is 0.023193, this means that it thinks that the player's chance of winning would have been 2.3% higher if he had played the suggested move instead.

(I think that the "probability of winning" is really what fraction of playouts were wins, but that's kind of a detail. It would mean that all the probabilities are closer to 50% than you'd expect.)

[erislover]

It's how much it thinks the probability of winning the game would have gone up if the suggested move had been played rather than the actual move.

That's what I thought, thanks!

[Pippen]

If I buy CS and install it and then archive it on DVD, can I use the DVd copy to reinstall it on another computer or if my original gets deleted? I don't wanna spend $80 for a one-and-done-copy. If possible do I have to be connected to the Internet for the second install again?

[Amtiskaw]

If I buy CS and install it and then archive it on DVD, can I use the DVd copy to reinstall it on another computer or if my original gets deleted? I don't wanna spend $80 for a one-and-done-copy. If possible do I have to be connected to the Internet for the second install again?

Hmm, there was some talk of a Steam version of CrazyStone, which I think would let you use it on any machine by logging into your Steam account. I wonder if that's happening though.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... /389714638

[Satorian]

The top levels are in fact defined as time per move, so they will be stronger with more powerful hardware.

If we measure playout speed in analysis mode, would there be a way to look up po/s versus approximate dan rating at each setting? Do you have a table like that?

[Mike Novack]

If I buy CS and install it and then archive it on DVD, can I use the DVd copy to reinstall it on another computer or if my original gets deleted? I don't wanna spend $80 for a one-and-done-copy. If possible do I have to be connected to the Internet for the second install again?

Those are the sorts of questions that a vendor of software SHOULD make clear. Whether the license is for one INSTALL, for use on ONE MACHINE (ever) regardless of how many times needs to be reinstalled, or for ONE MACHINE (at a time), meaning you can move it to a new machine when your old one is being replaced, or even a "site license" meaning can be on more than one of YOUR machines << at least of the go programs being sold is on that basis >>

Note that while you are referring to the cost of this software, the "free software" movement did not originally envision free as in free beer downloads but fairer license terms and low cost*, essentially comparable to a book (but note since academics, probably thinking in terms of a college textbook, not a paperback romance novel).

IMHO --- $80 would be steep for "single install" but quite reasonable for "use on one machine" (at a time) and a steal if "site license".

* Remember, this was in the days before much broadband internet and not just a few dominant OS's in use. Which is why in theory can be charged for the FREE software (source code --- mailed to you on standard medium for the accepted fee for that sort of service) and anybody could compile and link executables for running under whatever OS charging whatever they wanted for doing that for you with the idea being that if they were too greedy somebody would step up and offer that service for less.

[Pippen]

@Mike: I agree, but Unbalance is silence about all that. You basically buy the cat in the bag. It's only written that your computer has to have internet access for the first install. I'll wait a bit anyway to see what users say about it, so we'll see. Maybe soon other programs of that kind will flood the market (Zen? DolBaram?...)

[Sundaay]

I bought the 2013 version in January 2015. Later that year I sold my PC and bought a new one. I just installed the program, put in the serial number on the first startup just like before and then it just worked, no problems at all.

[oren]

@Mike: I agree, but Unbalance is silence about all that. You basically buy the cat in the bag. It's only written that your computer has to have internet access for the first install. I'll wait a bit anyway to see what users say about it, so we'll see. Maybe soon other programs of that kind will flood the market (Zen? DolBaram?...)

Zen announced a June release.

[Jnkstry]

I got this answer from unbalance:

We permit installing our Go game to several PCs only for personal use.
You will be able to install the program in both of your PCs, and re-install
the program in case of any trouble.

I could install crazy stone deep learning on my
Desktop PC and Notebook without problems.
Also i uninstalled it once just to see if I can
re-install it. Everything fine so far.

[Satorian]

Installed it on my desktop, laptop and Windows tablet. No problems here.

[Satorian]

Zen announced a June release.

Japanese only or will the English version launch simultaneously?

[oren]

Zen announced a June release.

Japanese only or will the English version launch simultaneously?

I only saw Japanese, so I'm not sure.

[Mike Novack]

I got this answer from unbalance:

We permit installing our Go game to several PCs only for personal use.
You will be able to install the program in both of your PCs, and re-install
the program in case of any trouble.

That's what I would call a personal/family "site license". When people complain about the price of software the sort of thing that should be taken into account.

Stupid question perhaps, but what did you have to go through to get the second/subsequent installs to work? In other words, how did they verify that it was "you" (an authorized purchaser) doing it?

Not as stupid a question as it might first appear. For example, methods based on "connection location" would make major problems for me personally << I lack bandwidth at home, so have to do downloads, installs, etc. wherever I can go to get bandwidth, and that varies by time of day and day of weeks where available >>