Crazystone

[pookpooi]

Zen 6 will release on June 3, based on self play it win against the older self 95% so it may be a little bit stronger than CrazyStone (if self play is reliable enough) but I'm not surprised since Zen got a big sponsor (Dwango) offering a nice hardware to run the deep learning training part.

[Jnkstry]

I got this answer from unbalance:

We permit installing our Go game to several PCs only for personal use.
You will be able to install the program in both of your PCs, and re-install
the program in case of any trouble.

That's what I would call a personal/family "site license". When people complain about the price of software the sort of thing that should be taken into account.

Stupid question perhaps, but what did you have to go through to get the second/subsequent installs to work? In other words, how did they verify that it was "you" (an authorized purchaser) doing it?

Not as stupid a question as it might first appear. For example, methods based on "connection location" would make major problems for me personally << I lack bandwidth at home, so have to do downloads, installs, etc. wherever I can go to get bandwidth, and that varies by time of day and day of weeks where available >>

Only had to enter the serial when installing and ehile having Internet connection. Thats all

[ZebraRose]

Wow. Just wow. Incredible program! Well done.

I have confirmed that Crazystone runs on a Mac with Crossover Mac 15, but
as mentioned before for the Parallels solution, the game UI (move list on
left of board and buttons on the right of board) is a little mangled.
Other than that it does run. And you can get the move list, game record,
and make moves via the pull down menus.

It works REAAAALLLY well on Windows, and I've been thoroughly enjoying it.

Can't wait for future versions and more features! Especially analysis
features. Anything to help folks get better at spotting their blunders
and understand what went wrong.

Also, an explanation of moves would be fantastic. SmartGo has a little
of an explanation after analyzing the position/game. Many Games of Go 12
also has its "Game Ideas" mode, but that's a little more cryptic than the
SmartGo explanation.

Really slick and well worth it!

[sequencer]

Hi,

does anyone have experience on different OS? I just switched form Windows 7 to Windows 10 on my desktop PC, and had to buy a new notebook with W10. It seems to me that Crazystone is weaker under W10. As a KGS 3k, I lost yesterday only by ~20 points on level 10.

[OtakuViking]

Hey sequencer Nibbler here. It seems to work fine for me and I'm using Windows 10. Afaik, Crazystone runs on CPU power alone so the rest should be irrelevant. I also think crazystone plays to win not to win by the largest margin possible. I haven't tried playing it on anything but 7d and timed yet. Try playing maybe a 4 stone handicap with it at 7d level and you can see its strength I think.

[sequencer]

Hi nibbler,

you are right. Yesterday I lost by 40 points on 7d level. Have not yet tried handicap games.

It was only an impression that CS got weaker under W10 after upgrading from W7, and CS-DL seemed surprisingly weak in the opening...

But, endgame is still pretty weak in both versions.

[energetictree]

I actually purchased CrazyStone 2013 a month ago (sigh) and asked the same question. Unbalance said I can install to multiple PC however it has limited seat and they won't tell how many. I guess too many installation will make your license invalid (license pirating?).

EDIT: I did install to 3 PCs: Office PC (Win 10), My old Macbook Bootcamp (Win 10) and My other Macbook (OS X El Capitan through winebottler) and all license active and checked without any problem.

[OtakuViking]

Here are two even games I played with crazystone on 7d level unlimited time. I'm about KGS 3d strength on a good day (but haven't ranked there in awhile, so not entirely certain). In both cases it used up more time than me (over 1h). The games below illustrate well CSDL's weakness. For some reason it has problems in situations where alot of reading is required. Perhaps this is the result of a too restricted search as remi said? In any case, improvements need to be made to the engine if I can beat 7d level in the engine like below. I played well though, don't get me wrong. Check next two games to see handicaps. CSDL strength confuses me... is it a strong weak player or a weak strong player? What is it!?

EDIT: Current conclusion, wait to buy until it is updated. But if you do buy, please know that it can make very strong and very good moves, but miss a crucial detail like a dead eyespace or capturing race or a tesuji like in the Lee Hajin game. Buy this if you are DDK or SDK wanting a strong opponent, or if you want to use its analysis tool. Otherwise, with such a steep price, it's best to wait until remi sorts this strange strength fluctuation business out. Hopefully he will fix it so it doesn't make more dumb DDK mistakes like in the Lee hajin game.

EDIT2: Crazystone definitely made me stronger. The two handicap games below were played before teh two even games. But there's still an issue with CSDL that needs to be fixed. Just wanted to say that I don't think I wasted my money. It made me stronger and I continue to have good games with it, just that there is this issue x.x

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7268

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7269

[OtakuViking]

Here are the two handicap games. I played more, but these are what I've saved so far.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7270

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7271

[CnP]

I just played my first quick game with the new CS software. I did wonder if the new version would offer any benefit to me since I'm not a Dan player - but the new playing style Remi describes is really nice at my level and it felt a lot more 'natural' so I'm pleased with my purchase. It doesn't hurt that I played it set at 5k (even), played fairly quickly and killed most of White's groups I didn't save the SGF I'm afraid which would have been good for laughs.

It's a bit superficial of me but I really like the ability to set CS to play at a particular kyu/dan level. The previous version's setting 1-10 was okay but as far as I could tell related mainly to thinking time unlike DL CS and it's "trained to play at level 'X'" approach.

As for the price, it's in the range you'd expect to pay for the best non-free chess engines so I don't have a problem with that.

Better integration of the analysis would be nice, as would the ability to automatically track your rank over time and adjust the computers strength (I think MFOG 12 does that) but these are minor issues.

[pookpooi]

The Japanese version of CrazyStone priced at 10,000 yen ($90) and it's doing quite well (from my Twitter search) so the $80 English version seems logical to me. The new Zen deep learning also priced at 11,059 yen ($100).

[LifeIn9x9]

Are future upgrades included in the price? It seems not.

[Bonobo]

Are future upgrades included in the price? It seems not.

I’ve never heard of an upgrade path (i.e. a reduced upgrade price) for CS — from what I’ve read every new version needs to be purchased completely anew.

And I wonder: have users of Crazy Stone ever received minor updates?

[Ortho]

Yes. I got an update for CS 2012 at some point though I can't remember the details. I'm sure it was free.

[Drew]

Those of you who own CS, could you please share some feedback regarding what features you think it should have but lacks?

EDIT - for example, the Android version which I own does not support a branching move tree. You also cannot move backwards along the move timeline during a game, only once the game is over. This is an archaic limitation compared to the current capabilities of free Android go clients.