Difficult decision...

[Babelardus]

Despite the fact that I don't *REALLY* need a new Go set, as my current beech board, glass stones and plastic bowls are serviceable enough, I couldn't resist looking around... with disastrous results.

Mr. Bozulich from Kiseido offered me a set of Yuki stones at a price just somewhat higher than that of a set of Blossom grade stones at Mr. Kuroki's, in the same size. The fact that I like the boards and bowls (and prices for those items) better at Mr. Kuroki's site makes this a very difficult decision.

I will probably get the board and bowls at Mr. Kuroki's. Shipment will be €108.
If I get the Yuki stones from Mr. Bozulich, they will cost €40 to ship, thus toal will be €148.
If I get the Blossom stones from Mr. Kuroki (with board and bowls), shipment will be 138.

In the end, the total price of a set will be very similar with either Mr. Bozulich's Yuki or Mr. Kuroki's Blossom stones, so it would be logical to get the stones from Mr. Bozulich and the rest from Mr. Kuroki.

BUT...

If I e-mail Mr. Kuroki about getting a complete set, I can possibly obtain a discount of up to 15.000 JPY (€125), if I use the same discount percentages he uses for his standard sets. The net result is that a complete set at Mr. Kuroki's could maybe end up €125 less expensive, but the cost for that price difference would be getting Blossom stones instead of Yuki stones.

I don't see a lot of discussion about Mr. Bozulich's equipment, while Mr. Kuroki's is universailly praised.

Has anyone been able to compare Kiseido Yuki stones with Kurokigoishi Blossom stones? If I would go for the latter, in case of a discount, how much 'worse' would the Blossom stones be?

(PS: if I do get one of these sets, it will probably be the only set I get for the rest of my life. One advantage of Mr. Kuroki is that I could order a set of white and black stones as spares along with the rest.)

[EdLee]

it will probably be the only set I get for the rest of my life.

Hi Babelardus,

How much experience with slate & shell stones have you had in the past ?

I'm not around long enough in the higher end go equipment scene; it's only been a few weeks, and it's a bit hard puzzling together several years of information and product line changes

If your entire previous experience with shell stones is "only a few weeks" of reading, as opposed to actually using, may I suggest you exercise more a bit more patience.

To make a life-long decision based on very limited research (and zero prior experience with shell stones) seems to me a bit rushed.
( Of course, if you may change your mind later, after you have used shell stones for a few years, then even better. )

What size are these sets ? Size 33 ?

( My instinct, based on what you wrote, is go with Mr. Kuroki --
and possibly consider getting a Standard grade ( jitsuyo ). )

[Babelardus]

it will probably be the only set I get for the rest of my life.

Hi Babelardus,

How much experience with slate & shell stones have you had in the past ?

None. I have only used glass stones.

What size are these sets ? Size 33 ?

( My instinct, based on what you wrote, is go with Mr. Kuroki --
and possibly consider getting a Standard grade ( jitsuyo ). )

The size would be either be 31 or 32 when going with Mr. Bozulich, or 32 when going with Mr. Kuroki. Now I use size 31-32 (just in between) Korean glass stones that are in the higher end of the glass stone specturm. I'm satisfied with that size and I'm used to it while replaying games.

You keep referring to Standard grade in recent posts, but that doesn't exist anymore at Mr. Kuroki's. Do you mean Blue Label?

A cheaper option would be:
Size 32 Blossom
Size 20 New Kaya Board
Cherrywood bowls

Or the cheapest:
Size 30 Blossom
Size 10 New Kaya Board
Chestnut bowls

It would cost about half of the set above.

Because of the discounts in the above set, it would be a bad deal to go for seperate Blue Label stones, a board, and bowls, except when e-mailing and then specifically asking for a discount on that set.

I have no problem asking for a discount on a personal set that is MORE expensive than one of the standard sets at full price, but I don't like to ask for one if a set is already CHEAPER to begin with.

Also, I know myself. I'm always ending up with the best I can afford *if* I think the price is still reasonable. What I'm trying to decide is if the price of a Snow/Kaya/Satinwood set is worth it over Blossom/Shin Kaya/Cherrywood. The first is (almost) twice as expensive as the second; and by dropping one size in stones, and getting the thinner 3 inch board instead of 5.5 inch, the price could be (almost) halved again.

[Babelardus]

To make a life-long decision based on very limited research (and zero prior experience with shell stones) seems to me a bit rushed.
( Of course, if you may change your mind later, after you have used shell stones for a few years, then even better. )

I've been researching this for over a year now; but I've only started to actively look at vendors and prices a few weeks ago, indeed

While I can certainly understand this sentiment, I've hit the 'use something cheaper first' snag too many times in my life; with computer equipment, with photography lenses, and with musical instruments. I *ALWAYS* ended up with the item I first thought to purchase, but tried to avoid with some rationale of 'it's too expensive', or 'too good for my current level' or 'let's see if this cheaper item will do'. In the end, this has always cost me a lot more money than if I went for that item immediately.

What I sometimes do is go for an "OK" item (as I did with my current stone/board/bowl set), that's still good enough but cheap enough to just sell without too much loss or even give away when I get something better. I do this when trying something new.

If the better item is out of reach, financially (or if I'm not willing to pay the price), I just scrap it off the list and never give it a second thought. Therefore you'll never see me considering a stone/board/bowl set that will cost 1500/3000/500 euro's. I just don't think it's worth it.

What I'm now trying to decide is if the Snow/Kaya board combination is worth it over the Blossom/Shin Kaya combination, because I don't want to decide "Yes it is" AFTER I buy the Blossom/Shin Kaya combo. The Snow /Kaya set is just (barely) within the budget I'm ever willing to pay for a Go setup, and that is mostly because Mr. Bozulich can sell me the Snow grade stones at almost a Blossom grade price. If his snow grade prices were equal to Mr. Kuroki's, it would be a done deal. I'd get a complete set at Mr. Kuroki.

What also plays a part in my decision is the following:

- I'm not ever picking up Chess again seriously. Anything beyond casual play is out. I've effectively switched to Go. That is not because I hate Chess or anything, I just like Go better for several reasons. I also already have the highly regarded DGT chess set (electronic computer board); I will only replace it with another DGT board if it ever breaks.
- In this interview Mr. Kuroki states that he estimates there will be another 15 years to go before the ability to make Kaya boards runs out. I don't know when this interview was; no date is given.
- Hyuga shells are already extinct, the Mexican Giant Clam is protected, and Mr. Kuroki himself states on this page:

Today, stricter regulations in protected areas in Mexico make it difficult for us to dig more natural clamshells from those beaches. In addition, the quality and the number of natural clamshells have been gradually decreasing.

Also, prices on clam stones increased hugely in Januari this year (Mr. Bozulich's prices still seem to be the old ones), and I expect prices to rise even further; possibly putting even Blossom or Jitsuyo stones in the "I won't pay that" category. I wouldn't even be surprised that, in another 15 years, there will be no new clamshell stones and kaya boards anymore because the clams and wood got so depleted that harvesting is prohibited worldwide.

[EdLee]

Hi,

I didn't realize Standard is no longer available at Kuroki.
I guess the over harvesting has caused some big changes.

Have you had experience with thicker stones as well (over 10.5 mm) ?

[tchan001]

- In this interview Mr. Kuroki states that he estimates there will be another 15 years to go before the ability to make Kaya boards runs out. I don't know when this interview was; no date is given.

This interview is partly a result of some questions posed by myself on this thread from our forum dated July 2012:
viewtopic.php?p=104382#p104382

The interview should be dated around October 2012 as the first first snapshot of this webpage by the internet archive wayback machine was on October 4, 2012.
http://web.archive.org/web/201208150000 ... g/go-sets/

[Babelardus]

Hi,

I didn't realize Standard is no longer available at Kuroki.
I guess the over harvesting has caused some big changes.

Have you had experience with thicker stones as well (over 10.5 mm) ?

I have played with some bigger stones when I visited the single Go club within traveling distance of where I live. They were thicker than my stones (which are 8.5mm, so just a tiny 0.1mm bigger than size 31), but I don't know the actual size they were.

Everything above size 32 is out of the question, except when going for the cheapest options. The price of the stones should not be more than €450 ($510, 54000 yen), with an overshoot to €500-ish ($570, 60.000 yen) to have some play, if I should decide that something really is worth it, but I'd rather stay below €450.

This means that the following stones would be in my budget:

Mr. Kuroki:
Snow grade size 28 (on max budget)
Blossom grade size 32 or smaller (size 34 on ultra-max budget)
Blue label grade size 38 or smaller

Kiseido:
Snow 31 or smaller (size 32 on ultra-max budget)
Tsuki 32 or smaller (size 33 on max budget)
Jitsuyo size 33 or smaller (size 36 on max budget)

I wonder why I would buy Jitsuyo stones at Kiseido. Why should I buy Jitsuyo stones for $450, if I can get Tsuki stones for $470? And why should I buy those, if I can get Snow for $460 by dropping one size? The difference in price between Jitsuyo and Tsuki is not really shocking, up to and including size 33. I think that even the difference between Tsuki and Snow prices are rather modest up to and including size 31.

Actually, Mr. Kuroshi's Blossom size 32 is only less expensive than Mr. Bozulich's Snow 31 when the 10.000 yen ($93) discount is taken into account, when buying these stones in the standard set. Then they are about $30 cheaper. Otherwise, they are $63 more expensive.

I have no problems with my current size 31 stones; they're just fine. Maybe that's just because I'm used to them. The only way I could reach into the size 36+ category would be to go with Blue Label or Jitsuyo. The problem I have with stones starting at size 36 is that I think they're getting rather round and egg-like to look at, according to Mr. Kuroki's size image on the website.

Taking all of this into account, knowing that Size 31 or 32 would be fine with me, the options without stretching my budget to the max would be:

Mr. Bozulich's Snow grade size 31 @ $460
Mr. Bozulich's Moon grade size 32 @ $470
Mr. Kuroki's Blossom grade size 32 @ $470, or $377 with discount in a set.

As you can see, the only compelling reason *NOT* to go for the Size 31 snow grade stones (for me) is when I decide to get the Blossom grade size 32 stones in a set at Mr. Kuroki's. If I'd try bigger stones, they would either be more expensive (too expensive), of the lowest grade, and possibly even too big... with no way of returning them for a normal amount of shipping fee.

[Babelardus]

Oh, one more thing that could be a major decision. My vision is not very good. You might actually call it to be quite bad.

The one thing I like more about the Blossom stones is that the lines are fatter, and thus better visible for me. If the Snow lines are so thin that they are invisible except when backlit, while the Moon stone lines are visible during normal play, that would be a major plus for the Blossom stones.

[gowan]

Unless you are going to drop the shell stones on the floor frequently, all the grades of shell stones are adequately strong for normal use. As far as the appearance is concerned, there have been people in the past who have said that they prefer the look of the jitsuyo (standard) stones over the look of the yuki (snow) stones. It is all really a matter of personal preference. One factor that hasn't been mentioned is that the shell stones require some maintenance in the form of cleaning, this process is not difficult but it has to be done regularly or the stones show ugly dirt from the skin oils of the people handling them. If the shell stones are regularly taken to a go club for playing there are going to be some dropped on the floor and an increased risk of breakage.

Regarding the different grades of shell stones, historically the shells from Japanese clams had only three grades: snow, moon, and flower. The shells from Mexican stones had three grades: snow, moon, and jitsuyo (utility). Kuroki, possibly for marketing reasons, has used different unusual grade names from time to time.

[Babelardus]

Thanks for the input. I know about the cleaning process. It's no problem. Also dropping the stones is no problem as of yet; I have never dropped a stone in over a year of playing. If I ever join a Go club and would need to bring my own board and stones, I'll just use my glass stones (although I would get some chestnut bowls for them, instead of plastic) and a 1 inch spruce or beech board.

[EdLee]

Hi Babelardus,

Everybody's preferences are different, of course.
For me, I found that Mr. Kuroki's size 38 Standard offers a very nice price/"performance"
compared to their size 36 snow.

The whole point of snow grade is the very fine, "snow like" grains --
so taking your eye sight into account, I completely agree with you
that the more visible grains ("lower" grade, thus lower priced) would actually be
a bonus -- I also like the "character" of the more visible grains.

So one reason to go for standard (too bad, no longer available) versus a "higher" grade
would be that you can get thicker shell stones for the same price.

( My experiences went from 7~8 mm 'cheap' Korean glass stones,
to Kiseido 33 yuki, to Kuroki 36 yuki, to Kuroki 38 standard (now favorite for home);
to 10 mm Japanese glass, back to 10 mm ING plastic weighted (now favorite for coffee shop ).
Over a span of about 10 years to find my preferences for the precise thickness. )

[Babelardus]

The whole point of snow grade is the very fine, "snow like" grains --
so taking your eye sight into account, I completely agree with you
that the more visible grains ("lower" grade, thus lower priced) would actually be
a bonus -- I also like the "character" of the more visible grains.

That's actually what I'm after: stones that have some kind of character, that offer something to look at. If Snow grade has such fine grains that I actually can't see them while playing and/or holding the stones, then that is a minus. I don't need or want to shell out (heh) big bucks for a stone that, in the end, looks the same as a glass stone to me.

You posted a picture of snow grade stones somewhere in a recent thread. I must go see if I can find that again. Most people display the stones backlit, but I don't play Go in a lightbox.

So one reason to go for standard (too bad, no longer available) versus a "higher" grade
would be that you can get thicker shell stones for the same price.

You're quite big on big stones, I see, but I'm probably not When looking at pictures, I just don't like the looks of a >= 36 stone on the board.

While "Standard" is no longer available, I think that this grade was just renamed to Blue Label.

( My experiences went from 7~8 mm 'cheap' Korean glass stones,
to Kiseido 33 yuki, to Kuroki 36 yuki, to Kuroki 38 standard (now favorite for home);
to 10 mm Japanese glass, back to 10 mm ING plastic weighted (now favorite for coffee shop ).
Over a span of about 10 years to find my preferences for the precise thickness. )

Because I started at Go knowing nothing but the rules, I just bought glass stones from the most expensive series available directly in the Netherlands at the time because I read that cheap stones could be uneven. For size, I picked the middle size of 5 available. For the board, I just took the cheapest wooden board they had. The set has served me well.

====================================================================

Another thing to consider is the stone/board combination regarding price.

If I should get the Snow grade stones of Mr. Bozulich ($460), would a Shin Kaya board of around $200 be inappropriate?
If I should get the Blossom grade stones of Mr. Kuroki ($470, or $377 with discount in a set), would a $499 Kaya board be inappropriate? Sadly, the cheaper Kaya boards Mr. Kuroki has stocked right now have too many obvious flaws, and the cheapest I like costs around 48K yen.

Because everyone is always emphasizing balance, I have a feeling that most people find these combinatios appropriate:

Snow grade stones => 5cm Kaya board
Moon/Blossom grade stones => 2.5cm Kaya board / 5 cm Shin Kaya or Katsura board
Standard grade stones => 2.5cm Shin Kaya or Katsura board
Glass stones => Bamboo or Agathis board

I could be wrong though, and maybe it's perfectly fine to combine the thinner, cheaper Snow grade stones with a 5cm Shin Kaya board, or the thicker, more expensive Blossom stones with a real Kaya board.

[Bonobo]

Just another experience:

I have ~11 mm Glass stones which I used to like best (I also have 7, 9 and 10 mm; don't be surprised: I am the local village Go club, and I have instructed an extracurricular school “Go workshop” for a while).

Then I had the opportunity to purchase an old used set of shell & slate stones, size ~30–31 (8-8,4 mm), origin and grade unknown, and I LOVED the haptic feeling of these SO MUCH MORE, and I was surprised because before I had always thought “thicker is better” with regard to Go stones.

And a few years later, i.e. just recently, I had another lucky opportunity … this time size 33 … and <wow> the awesomeness! (probably more like, “Waa! Sugoi ne!” )

I can tell that if I ever get another lucky opportunity I will definitely need to look and touch the stones, but for now I am extremely happy that meanwhile four people can play here with such wonderful stones And it’s been a long time since the 11 mm have been used … we also have a set of single-convex Yunzi, and the maximum number of boards we currently use are three (i.e. three people playing each other in a circle).

[Babelardus]

we also have a set of single-convex Yunzi...

Yunzi stones should be forbidden. Yeah, so sue me

I've watched some games on Youtube where a Chinese commentator replays a game, using Yunzi stones. For some reason, they all sound as if they're snapping a coin against a table: "CLACK! CLACK!" I'm sure you could do that with a lens shaped stone by hitting the board really hard, but I don't see those commentators do that, so I gather that it must be the stones making that sound because of their design.

And I'm still torn by the decision with regard to which set of board and stones to get... Snow 31/Kaya, or Blossom 32/Shin Kaya, or even the other way around: Snow 31/Shin Kaya or Blossom 32/Kaya.

The Snow 31/Shin Kaya combo doesn't really feel right though; they feel too far apart.
The Blossom 32/Kaya combo may be better, but in that case, the board is actually somewhat more expensive than the stones, and I don't know if that would be a proper combination.

[Bonobo]

Yunzi stones should be forbidden. Yeah, so sue me

Heh

These single-convex ones really are handy when we are three people playing each other in a circle (i.e. everybody plays two games simultaneously) and thus we cannot watch both boards at the same time — the last move is always played with a stone turned upside down, so the next player immediately sees the last move and turns it back to upside up (do you say that?) when they play their own move, again upside down. And they are green-ish, wich is quite nice, too

I've watched some games on Youtube where a Chinese commentator replays a game, using Yunzi stones. For some reason, they all sound as if they're snapping a coin against a table: "CLACK! CLACK!" I'm sure you could do that with a lens shaped stone by hitting the board really hard, but I don't see those commentators do that.

Maybe they used Bamboo boards? Those are extremely hard.