- Everyone blunders; I don't need to embed the video of the 9p who self-atari'd on live television right?
- You should not judge your progress on just that game. Some suggestions for self-analysis to see your progress:
- Review several meaningful games you played a year ago; can you see any moves you made then you wouldn't make now?
- Solve a set of tsumego, and time yourself how long it takes to come up with the answer for each problem. Come back a year later and see if you're able to solve them more quickly. You should also store away some tsumego you barely seem unable to solve, and see if you can solve it the next year.
- Have someone as a checkpoint (i.e., rival) that you can use as a reference point to see if you're doing better or worse against that person.
- You may be studying hard, but are you studying effectively?
- Do you apply the concepts you learn from Hwang Inseong's lectures immediately into your games and do your best to integrate them long-term?
- Are you solving tsumego that's neither too easy nor too difficult?
- Are you reviewing ALL of your games, rather than just the AYD games?
- Regarding your two options, I already mentioned your first one (Improve study efficiency). Regarding your second one (Decrease expectation), don't decrease expectation, but change it. It seems like your expectation is tied too much to results. Instead of winning more games, your expectation could be:
- To just play more beautiful games.
- To help you understand pro games better.
- Lastly, you should believe 100% that you can and will improve. Gotta have the right mindset.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Solomon
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thank you. I think I needed to hear a response like this. It's also nice coming from someone I've met in person.wineandgolover wrote:Hi Brian,
As you know, improvement once you are dan is much harder, with thick walls, and it can be frustrating. If I were you, I wouldn't give up on improving, because I still think that is a reasonable and achievable goal, for you especially. But it might be worth finding another way to appreciate the game at the same time.
Man, I am getting envious of your travel!wineandgolover wrote: Not the way I'm doing it now, because I'm hardly playing go at all. (I will try to fix that when I get back from Thailand.)
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I like your ideas of comparing games or problems attempted from a long time ago. Seems like a more reasonable data point to use than a game I played last week, for example.Solomon wrote: [*]You should not judge your progress on just that game. Some suggestions for self-analysis to see your progress:
- Review several meaningful games you played a year ago; can you see any moves you made then you wouldn't make now?
- Solve a set of tsumego, and time yourself how long it takes to come up with the answer for each problem. Come back a year later and see if you're able to solve them more quickly. You should also store away some tsumego you barely seem unable to solve, and see if you can solve it the next year.
- Have someone as a checkpoint (i.e., rival) that you can use as a reference point to see if you're doing better or worse against that person.
I also like the idea of having a rival, but I'll have to think about who it should be. When I first learned Go, I had a rival that brought me up to about 5k. It would be nice to have that type of motivation, again.
Not always. Before getting burnt out, I actually wanted to consciously make sure I was learning from the reviews he did of my games. So I would go over the video, record each board position where he commented, then I saved each as eidogo links, and hacked in some quick javascript to pick random eidogo links and allow me to solve the problem. Effectively, it meant a randomized set of board positions, with each position asking a question relevant to his comment in the review.Solomon wrote: Do you apply the concepts you learn from Hwang Inseong's lectures immediately into your games and do your best to integrate them long-term?
This seemed to work alright, but I fell behind in doing this. Also, since it took some time to go through the review and input each board position, I'd spend more time inputting a new game than I did reviewing old board positions.
It was somewhat of a novelty, but I think I need to work harder to keep up with it.
For non-review lectures, there's a ton of content he has. I remember some things during games for sure, but I have by no means mastered any particular lecture.
Sometimes, but maybe not consistently.Solomon wrote: Are you solving tsumego that's neither too easy nor too difficult?
Usually, but these days, I (mostly) only play AYD games. I suppose I'm playing a Malkovich game, though.Solomon wrote: Are you reviewing ALL of your games, rather than just the AYD games?
I agree it might be a good idea to adjust my expectation to something on a different dimension than winning. I have a hard time seeing beauty in games. I suppose I think games can be pretty cool, though, when things connect together to bring about a good result.Solomon wrote: Instead of winning more games, your expectation could be:You still need to improve to do this, but you won't be focused so much on results.
- To just play more beautiful games.
- To help you understand pro games better.
Maybe I could aim to play games that are "cool".
Pro games are a good idea, too.
Thank you for the encouragement.Solomon wrote: Lastly, you should believe 100% that you can and will improve. Gotta have the right mindset.
be immersed
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
When I was around 3 kyu I had a small booklet in which I religiously recorded my games, mostly from memory, so I often got lost after 100 moves or so. Years later, when I was 3 or 4 dan, I ran across that booklet and played over a few of my old games. I did not recognize my former self. What the hell was I thinking!Kirby wrote: I like your ideas of comparing games or problems attempted from a long time ago. Seems like a more reasonable data point to use than a game I played last week, for example.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
In general, I think that the decision to have hope is worth it, even if it opens us up to disappointment. And I don't think there is anything to indicate that your desire for improvement is unrealistic. Hopefully the struggle you are experiencing makes the eventual gain sweeter.
As an amateur, I think you're right to look for joy in the act of studying. But I don't think it follows that you shouldn't expect a return on your investment of time. I doubt the study will be a pleasant experience if there is no thought of potential gain at the end. You might need a different approach or a different way to measure your progress, though. IT sounds like you're already thinking of some ideas in that regard.
As an amateur, I think you're right to look for joy in the act of studying. But I don't think it follows that you shouldn't expect a return on your investment of time. I doubt the study will be a pleasant experience if there is no thought of potential gain at the end. You might need a different approach or a different way to measure your progress, though. IT sounds like you're already thinking of some ideas in that regard.
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Charles Matthews
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I think at certain times it makes sense to study the technique of the game, for its own sake (separately from the sporting aspect). If reviewing games was going to do it for you, it probably would have done by now.Kirby wrote:I suppose I should start trying to find some sort of intrinsic happiness in studying Go - just to study, without expectations of any sort of result...
Dunno where to start with that, though.
Which bits of sequences would you find "running through your head", like a tune?
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I suppose the effect would be significant, given that your rank difference was significant. If I looked at a 5 or 6 stone weaker version of myself, I think it'd probably be pretty clear that I didn't know what I was doing. But it's been quite awhile since I was 5 or 6 stones weaker, so I'd have to look back at games played several years ago!Bill Spight wrote: When I was around 3 kyu I had a small booklet in which I religiously recorded my games, mostly from memory, so I often got lost after 100 moves or so. Years later, when I was 3 or 4 dan, I ran across that booklet and played over a few of my old games. I did not recognize my former self. What the hell was I thinking!
Thank you. I hope so, too.jeromie wrote:In general, I think that the decision to have hope is worth it, even if it opens us up to disappointment. And I don't think there is anything to indicate that your desire for improvement is unrealistic. Hopefully the struggle you are experiencing makes the eventual gain sweeter.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Could you explain what you mean by this?Charles Matthews wrote: Which bits of sequences would you find "running through your head", like a tune?
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Charles Matthews
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I don't suppose I'm unique in this. I can visualise, to some extent, sequences on part of a go board, away from a set or screen. Unfortunately things I "read" in this way tend to need checking. I just thought that this was a kind of test for what you find interesting in the technical sense (joseki, life-and-death or tesuji, endgame).Kirby wrote:Could you explain what you mean by this?Charles Matthews wrote: Which bits of sequences would you find "running through your head", like a tune?
There was a net I was shown in South Korea, which had a cute diagonal play in it, and I often casually try to reconstruct it in my head. As part of a project to collect examples of the 40 or so types of standard nets (allegedly) - which I maybe will never get round to.
Go is supposed to be a hobby, a way to socialise, a thing to study in its own right, a kind of portal to East Asian cultures ... The bluish spectacles with which you are viewing at present suggest a mismatch, of what it means to you, with what you feel you are investing in it.
My comment was meant as a mildly provocative inkblot test.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Nearly 5 months since I posted here last.
Nearly 2 months since I played a game on KGS - and that was an unusual one - a final game against crowis (about 4 months ignoring the required AYD games).
Over 2 months since I quit the American Yunguseng Dojang.
About 3 months since I was shocked by AlphaGo and went into depression/hibernation.
I decided to come out of hibernation, and start the engine going on this journal, again. Looking back, I was pretty ambitious last year. For awhile, I'd play a game every one or two days and post it here.
I am not at that stage yet.
But I am at the stage to committing to posting a game here about once a week. I've officially added it to my schedule. It will probably come either on Friday or Saturday most weeks. If I don't do it, please post here and remind me! (But I'll try to do it, anyway.)
Without further ado, here is the game.
I lost pretty quickly. It was my first game on KGS in a long time, so somehow KGS put me at [3d?]. When I was playing consistently, I was around 1d on KGS, and bordering on 2d on good days.
My opponent had no game record and was a [?] player. He said he was between [2d] and [3d] on KGS.
Anyway, I left analysis in the SGF file. Please feel free to review it and leave your own opinions and/or feedback.
I will post diagrams shortly. Because. Well. People like pictures.
Nearly 2 months since I played a game on KGS - and that was an unusual one - a final game against crowis (about 4 months ignoring the required AYD games).
Over 2 months since I quit the American Yunguseng Dojang.
About 3 months since I was shocked by AlphaGo and went into depression/hibernation.
I decided to come out of hibernation, and start the engine going on this journal, again. Looking back, I was pretty ambitious last year. For awhile, I'd play a game every one or two days and post it here.
I am not at that stage yet.
But I am at the stage to committing to posting a game here about once a week. I've officially added it to my schedule. It will probably come either on Friday or Saturday most weeks. If I don't do it, please post here and remind me! (But I'll try to do it, anyway.)
Without further ado, here is the game.
I lost pretty quickly. It was my first game on KGS in a long time, so somehow KGS put me at [3d?]. When I was playing consistently, I was around 1d on KGS, and bordering on 2d on good days.
My opponent had no game record and was a [?] player. He said he was between [2d] and [3d] on KGS.
Anyway, I left analysis in the SGF file. Please feel free to review it and leave your own opinions and/or feedback.
I will post diagrams shortly. Because. Well. People like pictures.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Review Highlights
Position 1: Somehow, things already feel somewhat dissatisfying. I played 'b', which gives no pressure: He can tenuki. On the other hand, if I exchange a pressure-giving move, I don't feel like I get much. Here: there's a big chance he might attack me, as above.
So maybe I play on the other side: But maybe it is too far. If it were one space closer, it'd be more useful in the variation in the game: OTOH, he might not select this variation: But it doesn't seem that bad to me, compared to the game.
----
Position 3:
Probably this is a mistake: It's not clear to me that white is better, but this seems better for white with variations that I see (see the SGF): I don't know for sure that it's better. But it seems nicer to me, given that my white stone on the left is poorly positioned for what resulted.
---
Position 4:
The following sequence is just ridiculous
Nothing really to say about it, except that it's a very bad reading mistake, and ended the game quickly.
---
In following my previous format, I guess I would think of the following things to learn from this game:
1. Carefully consider the position of the pincering type stone on the left.
2. Consider deviating from first-instinct (e.g. hane in position 3, above).
3. Don't make silly DDK (no offense to DDKs) sequences that end the game so soon
---
I'm not really that upset about this game. Maybe I didn't have much expectation. But I am happy to play again. If I describe my feelings toward Go using Korean, I guess I'd use the word, "밉다" (meepda). In a Korean dictionary, it translates to English as "detestable", "hate", or "detest". But I'd describe the word more precisely in saying that it is more like having a love/hate relationship.
I love go. I hate go. I play go.
here i am.
Position 1: Somehow, things already feel somewhat dissatisfying. I played 'b', which gives no pressure: He can tenuki. On the other hand, if I exchange a pressure-giving move, I don't feel like I get much. Here: there's a big chance he might attack me, as above.
So maybe I play on the other side: But maybe it is too far. If it were one space closer, it'd be more useful in the variation in the game: OTOH, he might not select this variation: But it doesn't seem that bad to me, compared to the game.
----
Position 3:
Probably this is a mistake: It's not clear to me that white is better, but this seems better for white with variations that I see (see the SGF): I don't know for sure that it's better. But it seems nicer to me, given that my white stone on the left is poorly positioned for what resulted.
---
Position 4:
The following sequence is just ridiculous
Nothing really to say about it, except that it's a very bad reading mistake, and ended the game quickly.
---
In following my previous format, I guess I would think of the following things to learn from this game:
1. Carefully consider the position of the pincering type stone on the left.
2. Consider deviating from first-instinct (e.g. hane in position 3, above).
3. Don't make silly DDK (no offense to DDKs) sequences that end the game so soon
---
I'm not really that upset about this game. Maybe I didn't have much expectation. But I am happy to play again. If I describe my feelings toward Go using Korean, I guess I'd use the word, "밉다" (meepda). In a Korean dictionary, it translates to English as "detestable", "hate", or "detest". But I'd describe the word more precisely in saying that it is more like having a love/hate relationship.
I love go. I hate go. I play go.
here i am.
be immersed
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wineandgolover
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Welcome back!
Why did you quit AYD? Is that decision permanent?
Why did you quit AYD? Is that decision permanent?
- Brady
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
There are a couple of reasons, but they all had to do with my view on me studying go - nothing to do with the AYD itself.wineandgolover wrote:Welcome back!
Why did you quit AYD? Is that decision permanent?
And the decision was not permanent - I am on the waiting list to get back in
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oren
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
You did violate Inseong's advice and started stuff early again. I'm sure you know that though.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Mostly agree, except, in order to "start stuff", there has to "be stuff", and reality didn't match what was in my head in this caseoren wrote:You did violate Inseong's advice and started stuff early again. I'm sure you know that though.
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