Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
The 5-5 is the first play in the Upper Manchurian Fuseki. 
See http://senseis.xmp.net/?UpperManchurianFuseki
See http://senseis.xmp.net/?UpperManchurianFuseki
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
The GoGoD database has almost 100 games with the 5-5 opening, ranging from Kitani's first use of it in 1933 (he played it several other times) to modern-day uses by players such as Yamashita Keigo and Gan Siyang.
It is reasonable in at least the sense that it has been reasoned about before being played. It was discussed first as part of Shin Fuseki theory, in particular under the headings of the principles of equilibrium and averaging, and was regarded as a highly versatile move.
Initially it often developed into one of the tochka (pillbox) shimaris, especially in the games of Hasegawa Akira and these still crop up occasionally in modern pro play.
Amateur opponents of this opening very often dive into the corner early but in pro play it is overwhelmingly more common to stay away from it (and especially they avoid the 3-3 point).
The "Upper Manchurian" appears to be absent from pro play, but a stripped down version of it, with the two corner stones, has appeared often in Matthew Macfadyen's games and Yamashita once tried it against Cho Chikun.
It is reasonable in at least the sense that it has been reasoned about before being played. It was discussed first as part of Shin Fuseki theory, in particular under the headings of the principles of equilibrium and averaging, and was regarded as a highly versatile move.
Initially it often developed into one of the tochka (pillbox) shimaris, especially in the games of Hasegawa Akira and these still crop up occasionally in modern pro play.
Amateur opponents of this opening very often dive into the corner early but in pro play it is overwhelmingly more common to stay away from it (and especially they avoid the 3-3 point).
The "Upper Manchurian" appears to be absent from pro play, but a stripped down version of it, with the two corner stones, has appeared often in Matthew Macfadyen's games and Yamashita once tried it against Cho Chikun.
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Bill Spight
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Re:
Here is the derivation:EdLee wrote:Hi Bill,
What's the etymology of the "Upper Manchurian" ?
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See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ManchurianFuseki for a couple of example of the delayed Manchurian in high level play.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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EdLee
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Bill Spight
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Re:
Just a variation on the Chinese theme. Although I am a fan of Khigh Dhiegh.EdLee wrote:I guess I was wondering how the 'Manchurian' part came about ...
was it a reference to the movie ? Or, just a 'variant' of the 'Chinese' theme ?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Uberdude
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Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
The 5-5 itself is a reasonable move, but in my experience it is often a sign that subsequent moves will not be.
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sliderser
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Actually in the morning or at night
Re: Is 5-5 a reasonable opening move?
Actually in Go every points in board is resonable except line1.
When you play in 5-5 ir show you are not concentrate about the conner to much cause your opponent can stay alive in 4-4,3-3. On the other hand, 5-5 show that you are interesting in moyo and big point in middle of the board, by the way, 4-4 is interesting same as 5-5 ,but differently, 4-4 is care about conner also."Bigger is easier to survive". That's mean 4-4 you can make surely territory bur 5-5 is not the same cause it's bigge. When you play in 4-4, your opponent can be survive in line3 by attack in 3-3 point but you stay alive in line3 that mean your opponent have a terrirory in line1&2, but you play in 5-5,yoyr opponent will stay alive in line4 bt 4-4 thar mean youe opponent have territory in line1&2&3, by the same joseki but your opponent have a bigger than you!!!
It'a true the 5-5 point is concentrate about moyo and middle area than 4-4 ,but in fact, 5-5 point is also far from the middle of the board, so that too hard to defend the territory on the middle.
In my oppinion, 5-5 is to high, like a bird that just fly one the sky, not a mansion on the rim and not a castle on a heaven.
When you play in 5-5 ir show you are not concentrate about the conner to much cause your opponent can stay alive in 4-4,3-3. On the other hand, 5-5 show that you are interesting in moyo and big point in middle of the board, by the way, 4-4 is interesting same as 5-5 ,but differently, 4-4 is care about conner also."Bigger is easier to survive". That's mean 4-4 you can make surely territory bur 5-5 is not the same cause it's bigge. When you play in 4-4, your opponent can be survive in line3 by attack in 3-3 point but you stay alive in line3 that mean your opponent have a terrirory in line1&2, but you play in 5-5,yoyr opponent will stay alive in line4 bt 4-4 thar mean youe opponent have territory in line1&2&3, by the same joseki but your opponent have a bigger than you!!!
It'a true the 5-5 point is concentrate about moyo and middle area than 4-4 ,but in fact, 5-5 point is also far from the middle of the board, so that too hard to defend the territory on the middle.
In my oppinion, 5-5 is to high, like a bird that just fly one the sky, not a mansion on the rim and not a castle on a heaven.